Rogue skills

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paladinn
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Rogue skills

Post by paladinn »

Pondering the C&C rogue. I know the typical "thief skills" are all BTB class abilities. I'm considering mixing some things up a little. How about instead of locking a rogue into the normal skill set, we allow a rogue to pick Any set of 8 skills. They can be from almost any "martial" class, like the archer or pirate or assassin or even barbarian. Those 8 skills become class abilities. Of course, the title "expert" might be better for the class at that point.

I'm also considering letting the "expert" add another skill every X levels.

What would be the up/down side of that? Can anyone think of skills that might qualify for the class abilities?

Gracias!

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maximus
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Re: Rogue skills

Post by maximus »

I like the Rogue as is. I'd add a Jack of all Trades kinda class if I wanted what you describe above, which is an interesting idea.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by JediOre »

Just so I fully understand the discussion, I must ask, what does "BTB" mean?

I think the down side would be the modified class would always be a back-up character, not shining as a rogue, but never really shining as any of the other martial class. The up side would be for a game with one player running one PC. You could customize adventures around the player's character's strengths and weaknesses.

If I were going to mess with the rogue, I think my approach would be more towards the AD&D thief acrobat.
In the words of my good friend Trevor, "Hey, put an arrow in that falling mummy! What could possibly happen?"

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by paladinn »

BtB = "By the Book"

I would likely leave the rogue alone, as there is definitely a need for that. But another class that would be built around the rogue chassis, but allow other skills/abilities on the same basis as the classic rogue. And I think it could be at least as good as a rogue in combat, depending on the skills selected. A lot of classes from the Players Archive could be raided for such. Most of those classes aren't that great, but they could be good source material. And yes, acrobat would be one of them.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Lurker »

I know one of the Monday night Ne'er do Wells has a house rule class that fits. I think it is a play on Bard, but similar to what you are talking about, having a list of skills they can pick from.

I believe it is Rigon's class, but it could be Tree's

that said, it is a great idea to have a class like that.
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Re: Rogue skills

Post by maximus »

Lurker wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:48 pm
I know one of the Monday night Ne'er do Wells has a house rule class that fits. I think it is a play on Bard, but similar to what you are talking about, having a list of skills they can pick from.

I believe it is Rigon's class, but it could be Tree's

that said, it is a great idea to have a class like that.
Speaking of Tree, we need to get him back on here...

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by serleran »

There are several skills that the rogue does not get which I believe they, or at least the assassin, should have:

1) Counter-Tracking (leave behind no evidence; rangers should have this, too)
2) Crowd Avoidance (the ability to hide among many)
3) Kill Silently (kill someone in a way that prevents audible alerts unless magically triggered)
4) Set Trap (prepare a trap for someone else to fail disarming or to reset an existing one)
5) Parkour (increase movement speed in urban environments and provide means of egress where otherwise limited)
6) Ambush (prepare a surprise attack in advance; rangers and barbarians, if permitted, should get this too)
7) Estimate Value (identify things of value among the dross - has no impact on magic, directly, but since they require better bases for enchantment are more likely to be "noticed" - bards should have this ability as well, in my estimation, but not the assassin)

and at least 8 more that I can't find at the moment. I know I had 15 and, when I used my alternate training rules, a player could elect to learn one of them at level increase. Took time, but downtime is usually useful for such things.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by maximus »

I like these, especially #1. Isn't #4 covered by the existing Traps ability? If not, I would use it that way.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Fizz »

serleran wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:15 pm
There are several skills that the rogue does not get which I believe they, or at least the assassin, should have:
Interesting, but i think a lot of these can be subsumed under current abilities. Also i think it depends on what you mean by "should have". I don't think all of these should be automatically available as addition skills, each gaining +1 every level. But if they're an option in place of a different skill, i can see it.
1) Counter-Tracking (leave behind no evidence; rangers should have this, too)
I've always included this as part of Track. After all, if you know how tracks are made and what to look for, you would have an idea as to how to prevent them. I don't think thieves should have it. One could argue it for an assassin if they are a bounty-hunter type.
2) Crowd Avoidance (the ability to hide among many)
I would consider that a part of Hide; the ability to blend into the background.
3) Kill Silently (kill someone in a way that prevents audible alerts unless magically triggered)
I think that depends on the nature of the kill, more than being a separate ability. This is better roleplayed imo. There is certainly precedent for this trope in action movies as well- it's not just a thiefy thing.
4) Set Trap (prepare a trap for someone else to fail disarming or to reset an existing one)
The Traps ability already has a section for setting traps, so that's already covered.
5) Parkour (increase movement speed in urban environments and provide means of egress where otherwise limited)
I could see this for an acrobat class, but the average thief / assassin is not a human super-ball when going over city terrain.
6) Ambush (prepare a surprise attack in advance; rangers and barbarians, if permitted, should get this too)
How is this different from a standard surprise situation? I think it's best role-played. In AD&D such classes would get a bonus to surprise others, but it wasn't a separate skill per se.
7) Estimate Value (identify things of value among the dross - has no impact on magic, directly, but since they require better bases for enchantment are more likely to be "noticed" - bards should have this ability as well, in my estimation, but not the assassin)
So a general appraising skill? Maybe, though it does touch on the bard's domain of 'knowing general stuff'.

There are a few others that might work: kip-up (for acrobats), escape / contortion, or tunnelling.


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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Brick Hardslab »

Which brings me to my next question. Why not call a thief a thief?

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by maximus »

Brick Hardslab wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Which brings me to my next question. Why not call a thief a thief?
Agree. "Rogue" is a 3E creation. I would leave the Thief name for that class, and make the Rogue class more of a Dex based fighter combined with some thief skills. I think it fits the name better.

Edit: I stand corrected. "Rogue" came out with 2E.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Lurker »

Brick Hardslab wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Which brings me to my next question. Why not call a thief a thief?
..... (had to edit my answer. It was trying to be philosophically witty but came off snarky) ...

I know originally in 1 e they were thief, but changed to Rogue in 2e to get away from negative names (just like 2e stopped calling Demons/Devils that) and called them Rogue.

Personally, I prefer thief but that is because I lean to more historic but gritty games, so a person with all the skills needed to rob steal and burgle is a thief. However, just like Tolkien put it 'professional treasure hunter' works as a job title too.
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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Grandpa »

serleran wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:15 pm
There are several skills that the rogue does not get which I believe they, or at least the assassin, should have:

1) Counter-Tracking (leave behind no evidence; rangers should have this, too)
A simple way to do this might be to add the Rogue's or Ranger's level to the CL
when someone is trying to track them, which is not done currently under RAW
for tracking checks.

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by paladinn »

Lurker wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:53 pm
Brick Hardslab wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Which brings me to my next question. Why not call a thief a thief?
..... (had to edit my answer. It was trying to be philosophically witty but came off snarky) ...

I know originally in 1 e they were thief, but changed to Rogue in 2e to get away from negative names (just like 2e stopped calling Demons/Devils that) and called them Rogue.

Personally, I prefer thief but that is because I lean to more historic but gritty games, so a person with all the skills needed to rob steal and burgle is a thief. However, just like Tolkien put it 'professional treasure hunter' works as a job title too.
Actually in 2e, they had the concept of class "groups": warrior, priest, mage and rogue. Rogue included thieves and bards; there were no assassins.

Interesting, they are reviving the same concept in 5.5e, calling the rogue group "expert"

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Grandpa »

Grandpa wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:58 pm
serleran wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:15 pm
There are several skills that the rogue does not get which I believe they, or at least the assassin, should have:

1) Counter-Tracking (leave behind no evidence; rangers should have this, too)
A simple way to do this might be to add the Rogue's or Ranger's level to the CL
when someone is trying to track them, which is not done currently under RAW
for tracking checks.
I stand corrected. This is in the PHB in the Tracking section of the Ranger class description; "The ranger can also hide tracks with a similar successful check."

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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:36 pm
Actually in 2e, they had the concept of class "groups": warrior, priest, mage and rogue. Rogue included thieves and bards; there were no assassins.
Actually, mage was a specific class. The group for arcane casters was the wizard group. Just sayin'... :)
Lurker wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:53 pm
I know originally in 1 e they were thief, but changed to Rogue in 2e to get away from negative names (just like 2e stopped calling Demons/Devils that) and called them Rogue.
As paladinn said, rogue was the group, and included both the thief and bard classes. Later on, other classes were added to the Rogue group for specific settings, such as the guilder from Birthright and the trader from Dark Sun.

The thief became the rogue class in 3e. I remember reading about the reasoning when 3e came out. The argument went like this: that you'd call Han Solo a rogue but you'd balk at calling him a thief. I remember thinking at the time: Han Solo is a smuggler, he deals in sneaking illegal good around the authorities... of course he's a thief! And of course, comparing the character of a sci-fi genre to one in medieval fantasy is inherently flawed anyways.


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Re: Rogue skills

Post by Brick Hardslab »

Lurker wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 1:53 pm
Brick Hardslab wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Which brings me to my next question. Why not call a thief a thief?
..... (had to edit my answer. It was trying to be philosophically witty but came off snarky) ...

I know originally in 1 e they were thief, but changed to Rogue in 2e to get away from negative names (just like 2e stopped calling Demons/Devils that) and called them Rogue.

Personally, I prefer thief but that is because I lean to more historic but gritty games, so a person with all the skills needed to rob steal and burgle is a thief. However, just like Tolkien put it 'professional treasure hunter' works as a job title too.
When I started they called things by their proper names. Hobbit, fighting-man, thief! Get those kids off my lawn. No wait, bring them back I need someone to shovel all this snow!

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