Rethinking C&C

Discuss the SIEGE engine, and SIEGE Engine games other than C&C, such as StarSIEGE, in this forum.
User avatar
paladinn
Ulthal
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by paladinn »

So on to two topics that will likely cause a firestorm: skills and feats.

First of all, I should like to adapt the "ability stat increase" idea from 3e. Every 4 levels (L4,8,12,16,20) a player can increase one stat by +1. 5e allows +2, or +1 to 2 stats, every 4 levels; I think this is a bit much for C&C. So +1 it is. I may back this down to every 5 levels, so a character only gets 4 ASI's by L20.

Second, the groundwork for feats ("advantages") is already in the CKG. There are several good feat-lists out the for C&C; I like the CKG version, or the one developed for Duke Omote's "Advanced C&C". Of course all this is optional. The CKG allows for 6 feats over a career, the level depending on one's class. Again, I think this is too much. Both the CKG and Omote give a feat at L1; I'm considering allowing that for "core" fighters (and maybe rogues) only. I'll discuss advancement below.

Third, the groundwork for a rudimentary skill system is also laid out in the CKG, both as a general rule-of-thumb and for secondary skills. Omote has a similar system. The supplemental Players' Guide to Aihrde 5e also has suggestions for the same, somewhat based on 5e's skill system. Omote grants 3 skills to every character at L1. The PGA varies based on class: rogue-types get 4, bards and rangers get 3, all others get 2. The PGA allows a +1 increase to All skills at L5,9,13 and 17, but no way to learn more. At L1 this grants a +2 bonus to Siege checks, which to me is excessive and would allow a L1 fighter, for example, to possibly be better at a thief skill than an actual L1 thief. That's a no-no.

What I would propose is a more streamlined and limited means of "advancement", "enhancements", "perks" or whatever:
1. At L1, all characters get three skills, which give a Siege bonus of +1 Without adding level.
2. Every 4 levels (4,8,12,16,20) a character choose one of the following:
a. One ASI to One stat.
b. One new feat/advantage
c. Two new skills
d. Increase two existing skills by +1

The CKG states that any skill system cannot allow class abilities to be overshadowed. This addresses that, while allowing characters to be a bit more versatile. A "skilled" character will never exceed an actual classed character in a class ability. By contrast a rogue, for example, who takes a skill could end up Adding the skill bonus to an existing class ability.

Any thoughts/suggestions? "This isn't C&C" is not a helpful one.

Fizz
Lore Drake
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:00 am

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 8:31 pm
My hit point (I saw what you did there) is to provide a "floor" for each level's hp increase. A fighter can still score 10 hp if they roll great. If they don't they're still looking at 6. Or could do 5.

A L10 wizard will still have a max of 40 before Con bonus; a L10 fighter will have 100. I don't consider that "virtually identical", but I didn't attempt all your math/
I'm not comparing fighters to wizards. I'm comparing fighters to fighters, and wizards to wizards.

I understand you were going for a floor, but i don't think you realize how this affects the statistics, and how similar the results will be for a particular class.

Yes, your wizard could theoretically have exactly 40 hit points at 10th level. The odds of that occuring is 1 in 262144. The odds of a fighter having 100 is literally 1 in a billion. These are efffectively non-events.

Far, far more likely your wizard character will have 33 +/- 1.5 hit points. Most of your 10th level wizards will be within 3 hit points. For comparison, under standard rules most wizards have between 21 and 29.

Thus, under your rule, every wizard will have virtually identical hit points to every other wizard. And per the previous post, every fighter will have near identical hit points to every other fighter. This rule significantly reduces the variety of characters.

What is the point of the rule if it produces essentially a static result? That is my (hit) point. So be aware of the ramifications.


-Fizz

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7352
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by Rigon »

paladinn wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 pm
First of all, I should like to adapt the "ability stat increase" idea from 3e. Every 4 levels (L4,8,12,16,20) a player can increase one stat by +1. 5e allows +2, or +1 to 2 stats, every 4 levels; I think this is a bit much for C&C. So +1 it is. I may back this down to every 5 levels, so a character only gets 4 ASI's by L20.
I do a +1 every 6 levels to attributes, but they can't raise attributes above "normal" for their race. (Humans can't raise anything over 18, elves can raise Dex to 19, but Con to only 17, etc.). I went with every 6 levels because C&C is level 24-based.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
paladinn
Ulthal
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by paladinn »

Rigon wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:37 am
paladinn wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 pm
First of all, I should like to adapt the "ability stat increase" idea from 3e. Every 4 levels (L4,8,12,16,20) a player can increase one stat by +1. 5e allows +2, or +1 to 2 stats, every 4 levels; I think this is a bit much for C&C. So +1 it is. I may back this down to every 5 levels, so a character only gets 4 ASI's by L20.
I do a +1 every 6 levels to attributes, but they can't raise attributes above "normal" for their race. (Humans can't raise anything over 18, elves can raise Dex to 19, but Con to only 17, etc.). I went with every 6 levels because C&C is level 24-based.

R-
Agreed about the racial max's for stats. I think I'm going with a L20 limit for PC's. So maybe every 5 levels.

But do they have to choose between an ASI, a new "feat", or adding or improving 2 "skills".

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7352
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by Rigon »

paladinn wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:43 am
Rigon wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:37 am
paladinn wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 pm
First of all, I should like to adapt the "ability stat increase" idea from 3e. Every 4 levels (L4,8,12,16,20) a player can increase one stat by +1. 5e allows +2, or +1 to 2 stats, every 4 levels; I think this is a bit much for C&C. So +1 it is. I may back this down to every 5 levels, so a character only gets 4 ASI's by L20.
I do a +1 every 6 levels to attributes, but they can't raise attributes above "normal" for their race. (Humans can't raise anything over 18, elves can raise Dex to 19, but Con to only 17, etc.). I went with every 6 levels because C&C is level 24-based.

R-
Agreed about the racial max's for stats. I think I'm going with a L20 limit for PC's. So maybe every 5 levels.

But do they have to choose between an ASI, a new "feat", or adding or improving 2 "skills".
I don't use skills and feats in my game, so no, it's just and attribute increase.

R-
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

User avatar
paladinn
Ulthal
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by paladinn »

Rigon wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:50 pm
paladinn wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:43 am
Rigon wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 2:37 am
paladinn wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 9:44 pm
First of all, I should like to adapt the "ability stat increase" idea from 3e. Every 4 levels (L4,8,12,16,20) a player can increase one stat by +1. 5e allows +2, or +1 to 2 stats, every 4 levels; I think this is a bit much for C&C. So +1 it is. I may back this down to every 5 levels, so a character only gets 4 ASI's by L20.
I do a +1 every 6 levels to attributes, but they can't raise attributes above "normal" for their race. (Humans can't raise anything over 18, elves can raise Dex to 19, but Con to only 17, etc.). I went with every 6 levels because C&C is level 24-based.

R-
Agreed about the racial max's for stats. I think I'm going with a L20 limit for PC's. So maybe every 5 levels.

But do they have to choose between an ASI, a new "feat", or adding or improving 2 "skills".
I don't use skills and feats in my game, so no, it's just and attribute increase.

R-
I got that. Like I said, C&C is my foundation. Framing the house now :)

User avatar
paladinn
Ulthal
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by paladinn »

So I've settled on giving an "enhancement" to all characters every 4 levels, at L4, 8, 12 and 16.
Again, a player can pick from the following:
1. Increasing one stat by +1
2. One new feat ("advantage")
3. Two new skills
4. Improving 2 existing skills by +1

Pressing on.. "Fighters" are both a discreet class and a "group." All sub/classes in the group have several things in common:
1. d10 HD
2. Full BtH progression
3. At L1, a fighting style (ala 5e) and 2 skills
4. At L10, a straight-up extra attack
Sub/classes in the group include paladin, ranger, berserker (maybe) and swordmage. These will branch off the fighter at L3.

Still working on the fighting styles; but they include archery, great-weapon, 2-weapon, thrown weapon, etc. The style really sets the direction for the fighter's career.

"Core" fighters get the following features:
1. Combat Dominance at L3. This grants one attack per fighter level against creatures with 1/2 the fighter's HD. Such an attack ends if/when the fighter attacks a creature with more HD, or if s/he misses.
2. Weapon Specialization at L3, 7, 11 and 17. +1 to hit and damage to one weapon, new or existing. +3 max.
3. Extra attacks at L5, 10, 15 and 20
4. Martial Prominence at L9. (From Haunted Highlands) This allows a fighter to trade some or all attack bonus for damage or AC.

I think this will do a lot to make "just fighters" a lot more attractive.

Thoughts?

User avatar
paladinn
Ulthal
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:40 pm

Re: Rethinking C&C

Post by paladinn »

Hola all,

It's been a while. Continuing with my re-visioning of C&C.. I'm working on incorporating some of the features from other renditions of "The Game" expressly with the intention of buffing the martial classes, hopefully without completely destroying game balance (overrated I know) or making things over-complicated.

With respect to the rogue (not "rouge" - that's makeup), here's what I've come up with:
1. At L1, rogues get to choose 8 "talents" as class abilities, which will add their level to checks. More below.
2. At L1, rogues get the backstab/sneak attack ability, at +2 and 2x damage, increasing by +1 at L5, 9, 13 and 17
3. At L2, rogues get the weapon finesse ability, using Dex to hit and possibly damage.
4. At L3, they get the "Uncanny" Dodge ability; at L7 the get the Evasion ability.
5. At L14, they get the ability to at least Try to use a magic item.

As with all characters, they get an "enhancement" (feat, 2 skills, new or improvements, or an increase of +1 to one stat) at L4,8,12,16,and 20.

I'm also expanding the list of available "talents" available to rogues at L1. This opens the class to other concepts besides the traditional "thief." The standard list consists of Climb,Decipher,Listen,Hide,Silence,Locks,Traps and Pilfer (Pick Pockets)

My expanded list includes these:
Lore
Exalt
Fascinate
Acrobatics
Survival
Track
CaseTarget
Disguise
Poisons
Intimidate
Taunt
Tumbling
Horsemanship
Observe
Signaling
Seamanship
Escape
ReadMagic
Leaping
DangerSense
Charm
Embolden
Demoralize
AnimalHandle
Medicine

These are derived from other skill-based classes. I don't think it overly treads on the other classes because they don't duplicate All of the other classes' abilities. But a rogue can mix and match to match more of the precise character concept desired. And it shores up the rogue's identity as the skill monkey.

Impressions?

Post Reply