5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

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GameOgre
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5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by GameOgre »

I have a friend who loves his 5E Bard. We have talked about changing to C&C but he hates the idea of a spell less bard. A while back I remember seeing a 5E type Bard someone came up with for C&C but can't seem to remember where. Anyone got a clue?

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Persimmon
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Persimmon »

There is a spellcasting bard option in Adventurers Backpack.
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paladinn
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by paladinn »

The 5e bard is a "full-caster." I would Not recommend going that route.

The 1e bard was a hot mess. One started as a fighter for 5 levels, then a thief for 5 levels, then actually become a bard with druid spells. I would actually suggest using the paladin/ranger spell progression (no spells till L9).

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GameOgre
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by GameOgre »

I don't think he needs to be a full caster. I think the player just wants some spells, will check out the AB for that bard option.

Thanks!

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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Persimmon »

IMO the spell-casting versions of the bard, ranger, and paladin found in the Adventurers Backpack are the best versions of those respective classes out there. This is because they each get their own spell list, derived from the other lists. It's not just full access to all wizard, cleric, or druid spells. And they just require more XP than the standard classes. So it's super easy to implement, but not overpowered. The only thing better they could have done was include spells for these classes only like they did in Rolemaster bitd.

But this gives C&C players an easy options for spellcasting versions of these classes if they don't like the standards presented in the PHB while adding a bit more flavor than what you get in AD&D. I haven't played 5e so I can't comment on its versions of these classes.
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Fizz »

If you don't want a full spellcasting bard, you might want to check out the AD&D 2nd Ed version of the the bard. It is a rogue-ish, jack-of-all-trades type of bard, and is very easy to convert to C&C.

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paladinn
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by paladinn »

It's interesting (to me anyway) that the BECMI attempt at a bard class, from the Dragon Princess Ark articles, was basically a thief with some charm abilities. Kind of like the C&C bard :)

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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Fizz »

paladinn wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2023 3:35 am
It's interesting (to me anyway) that the BECMI attempt at a bard class, from the Dragon Princess Ark articles, was basically a thief with some charm abilities. Kind of like the C&C bard :)
In Dragon #177, it says the bard uses thief as a starting point, minus pick pockets and backstabbing, plus all the charmy stuff. So i agree that this version is like a thief with charm abilities.

But i disagree with the comparison to the C&C bard. The C&C bard fights like a warrior, has hit points like a warrior, and the only "thiefy" ability it has is Decipher Script. The C&C bard is better described as a warrior with some charm abilities.


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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by paladinn »

Good points. If one were to allow spellcasting, I'd drop the hp to d8 at most. And use the paladin/ranger spellcasting model. Maybe cleric BtH.

Are there any other "thiefy" abilities it should have?

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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by mgtremaine »

paladinn wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2023 2:11 pm
The 1e bard was a hot mess. One started as a fighter for 5 levels, then a thief for 5 levels, then actually become a bard with druid spells. I would actually suggest using the paladin/ranger spell progression (no spells till L9).
The hottest mess ever! 1ed bard best bard :)

I've used class-n-half Bard / Druid and got a similar feel. You can do Illusionist or Mage with it as well.

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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

Domesday #9 has a spell casting bard (druid and illusionist spells). a few at the beginning and slowly gaining more, but not full casters.

Domesday #8 has Paladins and Rangers once again casting spells at higher levels.

They should still be download able at the Knights of the Crusade site or PM me and I can send the pdf of the Domesday.
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by Captain_K »

OH I slip in some options thief skills. I tried to emulate the old fighter, thief, bard of first edition.
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by JediOre »

If you can find it, take a look at the Bard class from Dragon Magazine Vol. VI, no. 6 (December 1981) issue. This is what I use for my AD&D game and might give you some inspiration. The article is "Singing a New Tune - A Different Bard, Not Quite So Hard," by Jeff Goelz.

My C&C players like the Bard as written in the C&C Players Handbook.
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by JediOre »

One other thing to give some thought to. Perhaps you should create some magic items only bards can use, similar to those in the old AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, create ones from scratch, or augment magical musical instruments already in C&C to give more powers if a bard uses them.

By having your friend's converted bard access to enact magical abilities through his song and instrument, that might fit the bill, maybe?

Even though I use the bard in AD&D from the Dragon Magazine, listed above, I've never really got the bard-druid connection. Spells of the enchantment, slight of hand, and illusion categories seem to be more in keeping with the class at least for the traveling wandering minstrel that I envision.
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by paladinn »

JediOre wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:36 pm
One other thing to give some thought to. Perhaps you should create some magic items only bards can use, similar to those in the old AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, create ones from scratch, or augment magical musical instruments already in C&C to give more powers if a bard uses them.

By having your friend's converted bard access to enact magical abilities through his song and instrument, that might fit the bill, maybe?

Even though I use the bard in AD&D from the Dragon Magazine, listed above, I've never really got the bard-druid connection. Spells of the enchantment, slight of hand, and illusion categories seem to be more in keeping with the class at least for the traveling wandering minstrel that I envision.
The bard-druid connection is historical. In Celtic society, bards/sages/storytellers/etc. Were druids. In some cases bard-hood was a step on the way to druid-hood.

IMO the bard has been a weird mix of fighter, thief and mage/druid. In C&C it's obviously a lot more martial: full BtH (like paladins and rangers), d10 HD. And a bunch of class abilities. In general I prefer to keep actual spellcasting for actual spellcasters. But of the "hybrid" classes, if one were to get spells, it should be bard Only if the martial abilities were pared back a bit. I would suggest maybe d8 HD and cleric BtH progression. The bard spell list in CKG is fine.

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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by JediOre »

Paladinn,

Thanks for the reply on the connection.

I thought the druids all but exterminated by the Romans by around A.D. 70 or 80. I'm sure some survived, but enough to continue to have a strong influence in Roman and post-Roman Britain?
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Re: 5E Type spellcasing Bard fro C&C?

Post by paladinn »

JediOre wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:42 pm
Paladinn,

Thanks for the reply on the connection.

I thought the druids all but exterminated by the Romans by around A.D. 70 or 80. I'm sure some survived, but enough to continue to have a strong influence in Roman and post-Roman Britain?
Druids were still around, at least in Ireland, by the 400's AD. St. Patrick evidently had some run-ins with them. In fact, according to some accounts, when he was taken as a slave, Patrick actually served in a druid house. He got to know the people and their religion that way, and was much more effective in communicating with the Irish people when he returned to Ireland.

A lot of the druidic tradition was preserved in Irish/Celtic Wicca. There's also a theory that Merlin was a druid, or even the last of the druids.

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