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Wizard & Illusionist Game Mechanics 
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Renegade Mage
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Post Wizard & Illusionist Game Mechanics
Ok... here's a good question (actually two questions)

The first one has to do with spell progression. The table is clear and concise and follows a formula of progression almost perfectly.

The exception I found was that a 20th level spellcaster gains another 2nd level spell and a 4th level spell contrary to the established pattern. Is there a reason why this is the only place on the chart where this deviates?

The second question has to do with EPP. Is there anyone that can suggest a reason why an Illusionist, at 11th level, requires 100,000 xp less that the wizard counterpart... considering they have the same BtH, Spell Progression, Hit Dice, and weapon and armor restrictions? The illusionist actually has a couple abilities that the wizard doesn't have and yet they seem to follow the same EPP progression till the 12th level requirements. I know that spellwise, there is a slightly smaller selection for Illustionist spells for the higher spell levels compared to the Wizard. Would this be the reasoning behind this?

Just curious as this was something that came up when I started converting some of my old stuff over to C&C.

Thanks again -- you guys have been great!

Moriarty the Red
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:58 am
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Ulthal
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My gues is that both Wizards and Illusionsists get access to 6th level spells when they attain 11th level. If you look at pg 56, you see that the wizard has 12, 6th level spells to choose from. An illusionist (p 58) only has 8 spells at 6th level to choose from. I would guess that the lower number of available spells is the reason for the EPP difference.
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:15 am
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Renegade Mage
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Thanks, that's what I was starting to think as well... I just thought it was initially odd seeing that it really isn't hard to just create spells... there is nothing barring other spells being added and just because one class has more than the other doesn't mean they know all the spells of that spell level.

Besides, the Sharp Senses and Disguise abilities should compensate for the slightly smaller spell list.

Moriarty the Red
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:11 am
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Mogrl

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Actually Illusionist spells become weaker as you go up in levels. Meaning that many monsters and such are either immune or highly resistant to Illusion spells. Wizards don't have that same problem.

So I think it is because the Illusionist spell list actually becomes less effective as the levels and challenges increase. This "problem" definitely existed in 1E and the spells listed are such that I see it being a problem for the same reasons now.

I doubt the number of spells listed were a factor. I would hope they designed that aspect realizing people like me were going to adopt the 2E spell lists.

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Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:15 am
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Renegade Mage
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Thanks Treebore, I hadn't considered that and that also seems to make sense.

I'm probably going to be doing the same and bring in some favorite spells from 2nd Ed but only very gradually... thanks again for your input.

Moriarty the Red
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:33 am
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Unkbartig
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On the other hand, the PG specifically mentions that the Illusionist has useful trick at higher levels in that some of his spells don't allow for Spell Resistance and thus can affect monsters that could shrug off tougher wizard spells. ...


Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:12 pm
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Mogrl

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Very true. Like I kind of said before, I haven't played with the illusionist spells in C&C yet, but I highly suspect Illusions, over all, will become less effective.

If it is like in 1E, the deadliest illusionists are the ones in their personally prepared lair. I loved using them as BBEG in a tower, large mansion, or even a small shack that the party entered believing they were entering a huge castle. No one ever disbelieved. Not once!

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:50 pm
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Mogrl

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I'm thinking, though I'm not sure, that the two "bumps" were done to flatten the spell progression. However, I would have thought that another was needed, for it goes something like 7 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3. Problem? Its not patterned. The first 4 should be a 5, and the first 3 should be a 4, to get: 7 / 7 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3. Though... that gives a few too many "oomph" spells. Hmmm.


Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:54 pm
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Renegade Mage
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The way I see the patten was as follows:

By going down a spell level column, caster level by caster level, you typically get (and we will use spell level 3 as an example) starting at level 5 one third level spell, the next two levels (6 and 7), you get two third level spells, the next three levels you get three third level spells, and so on...

The entire chart follows this pattern although I may have not been clear in trying to explain it.

With the progression as I see it, a level 20 wizard would get:

7 / 7 / 6 / 6 / 5 / 5 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 3

The divine spell progression uses the same pattern but caps it at a maximum of 6 spells per level (with no pattern deviation)

Thanks,

Moriarty the Red
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:24 pm
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