I have been going over Harvesters, getting ready to run it primarily for my excited 7 year old...and my 12 year old wants to jump in as well. As I go through it more thoroughly, I have some thoughts, ideas, and so on I would like to throw out there.
First of all, great idea, including the setting and critters! It evokes an atmosphere that really gets the kids excited to play. However, the writing style, including the vocabulary used, is clearly aimed at an adult, who is obviously the mentor and mediator of the the game, expected to translate it to the children. No problem with that, but what would be neat is to rewrite the game at a level that a ten year old could grasp. That means bigger font, more artwork, and simplified C&C mechanics. I would go the route of StarSiege, not in complexity, but in the same vien that the game is a different game, yet written around the Siege Engine mechanics (but in this case, go for extreme simplicity).
This leads me to another suggestion. Race as Class. Hearken back to old school dungeons and dragons on this one. And if you want to keep classes, I think they need to be simplified and less C&C PHB. I realize the thought behind the direct use of regular C&C rules was due to the assumption that, since everyone knows C&C, they will pick up on Harvesters easily. Well, I think that assumption is dead wrong...sorry. The target audience, primarily children, are most likely not familiar with the rules, so it makes sense to create a new set aimed at their level. With that, a rewrite of spells as well.
If you were to do race as class, what would you guys suggest? I am doing this little rewrite for my kids prior to play.
As to the setting, John has done a tremendous job here, so don't take my rambling in a negative way....I am merely thinking out loud yet again. Maybe these ideas will come to pass in a new printing down the road.
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Thoughts on Harvesters
serleran wrote:
I would do Badger (Dwarf) and Rabbit (Elf). I don't have the product so I can't really comment, but those are the two that I would make sure I had included.
Those were the two in mind when I wrote up the race description on those two.
On the rewrite, that's a big "hmmm...that me think about that one". It was never my intention to create a whole new system for this - that's definitely not my forte. The main goal was to make it compatible with the other C&C system so that they could be combined if one was so inclined. Or to make it a transition type.
Some things for me to think about.
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kwheatonca
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Race as class not a bad place to start.
I agree in simplifying the game if young players are GMing. I started my 7 year old on D&D from the rules cyclopedia, and she is quick to grasp the idea and able to read that rule book without a hitch to figure out what her class gets next, spells, etc. The problem with race as class in that game is that clerics and thieves are limited to humans, and therefore class balance in the game depends on a default race. No such race exists in harvesters unless you focus on 1 type of animal as the most common (i.e. mice). Alternatively, you could make all Badgers fighters, all rabbits rangers, all mice clerics, all squirls rouges, etc...
Having said all this my experience with D&D race as class was questioned right away by my 7 year old." Why can't I be a druid or knight at 1st level, why can't my halfling be a thief, can I make a dwarf cleric, or an elf mystic, etc."
Thus I am not sure if race as class is more of barrier for young ones to envision their character concept. You might want to keep everything just the way it is, but suggest the most common race/class combinations .
Kids will surprize you.
I think the major flaw of harvesters is the cut/paste editing from the players handbook (which has been discussed before). It would have been better to be written from the ground up in a simplified version of the main rules, incorporating the flavour of the harvesters critters.
I am looking forward to running a game for my daughter. She will be getting the game for her 8th birthday with 40 painted minis from the splintered light miniatures. I plan to expand the current module as written into a redwall type campaign focusing on the wolverine as a major enemy for many sessions, and maybe incorpoating it into a seige of the castle.
I am sure my daughter will love the fact she can freely combine race and class when generating characters.
Cheers
Having said all this my experience with D&D race as class was questioned right away by my 7 year old." Why can't I be a druid or knight at 1st level, why can't my halfling be a thief, can I make a dwarf cleric, or an elf mystic, etc."
Thus I am not sure if race as class is more of barrier for young ones to envision their character concept. You might want to keep everything just the way it is, but suggest the most common race/class combinations .
Kids will surprize you.
I think the major flaw of harvesters is the cut/paste editing from the players handbook (which has been discussed before). It would have been better to be written from the ground up in a simplified version of the main rules, incorporating the flavour of the harvesters critters.
I am looking forward to running a game for my daughter. She will be getting the game for her 8th birthday with 40 painted minis from the splintered light miniatures. I plan to expand the current module as written into a redwall type campaign focusing on the wolverine as a major enemy for many sessions, and maybe incorpoating it into a seige of the castle.
I am sure my daughter will love the fact she can freely combine race and class when generating characters.
Cheers
Re: Race as class not a bad place to start.
kwheatonca wrote:
I agree in simplifying the game if young players are GMing. I started my 7 year old on D&D from the rules cyclopedia, and she is quick to grasp the idea and able to read that rule book without a hitch to figure out what her class gets next, spells, etc. The problem with race as class in that game is that clerics and thieves are limited to humans, and therefore class balance in the game depends on a default race. No such race exists in harvesters unless you focus on 1 type of animal as the most common (i.e. mice). Alternatively, you could make all Badgers fighters, all rabbits rangers, all mice clerics, all squirls rouges, etc...
Having said all this my experience with D&D race as class was questioned right away by my 7 year old." Why can't I be a druid or knight at 1st level, why can't my halfling be a thief, can I make a dwarf cleric, or an elf mystic, etc."
Thus I am not sure if race as class is more of barrier for young ones to envision their character concept. You might want to keep everything just the way it is, but suggest the most common race/class combinations .
Kids will surprize you.
I think the major flaw of harvesters is the cut/paste editing from the players handbook (which has been discussed before). It would have been better to be written from the ground up in a simplified version of the main rules, incorporating the flavour of the harvesters critters.
I am looking forward to running a game for my daughter. She will be getting the game for her 8th birthday with 40 painted minis from the splintered light miniatures. I plan to expand the current module as written into a redwall type campaign focusing on the wolverine as a major enemy for many sessions, and maybe incorpoating it into a seige of the castle.
I am sure my daughter will love the fact she can freely combine race and class when generating characters.
Cheers
Thanks for the input, y'all! Food for thought! I was originally under the impression that it was supposed to released in conjunction with the Basic Set. However, it hasn't been released and I have no idea what's going to be in it. So, it's quite possible that it may be released in the future using that system.
I'd love to see any pictures that may come about and to hear any stories about how things went! There will be a modest expansion covering the World of Wheat Hollow map to be included in a future Crusader magazine that will have a couple of other baddies to add.
I have some of the Splintered Light minis. They are very nicely done! I just wish they were 25mm vs. 15mm, but they're still very cool!
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Quote:
I have some of the Splintered Light minis. They are very nicely done! I just wish they were 25mm vs. 15mm, but they're still very cool!
I couldn't find anything in the 25-28mm in these....do they even exist? I wonder if TLG could make a deal with someone like Secret Skeleton to do a Harvesters series.....that would be really cool.
As to the rule structure rewrite, I was thinking of things that would simplify it for a kid, but translate over to regular C&C later on. For example, the whole 3-18 attribute thing. Those numbers are actually pretty meaningless.....back in the day it was important because you could roll under an attribute on a d20 for basic checks....but with the Siege Engine, we have the 12/18 target numbers...so the the 3-18 range for attributes are not actually necessary, just the modifiers. So I would suggest using the modifier as the score.....a strength of 0 is average, and 4 is an ogerish brute. This is easy enough. You just say....add your Dex to this die roll, or add your Strength to damage, etc. This is just one example of a reformat. The Dragon Age game, which I like a lot, did just this with their attribute system.
Again, just thinking outloud.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.
Piperdog wrote:
I couldn't find anything in the 25-28mm in these....do they even exist? I wonder if TLG could make a deal with someone like Secret Skeleton to do a Harvesters series.....that would be really cool.
As to the rule structure rewrite, I was thinking of things that would simplify it for a kid, but translate over to regular C&C later on. For example, the whole 3-18 attribute thing. Those numbers are actually pretty meaningless.....back in the day it was important because you could roll under an attribute on a d20 for basic checks....but with the Siege Engine, we have the 12/18 target numbers...so the the 3-18 range for attributes are not actually necessary, just the modifiers. So I would suggest using the modifier as the score.....a strength of 0 is average, and 4 is an ogerish brute. This is easy enough. You just say....add your Dex to this die roll, or add your Strength to damage, etc. This is just one example of a reformat. The Dragon Age game, which I like a lot, did just this with their attribute system.
Again, just thinking outloud.
Miniatures - The only ones that I have in 25mm are some hoopers and badders from the Gamma World sets released many moons ago. There are ratlings (I guess that's what they call them) on a couple of different sites: Iron Wind and GHI. I found some rabbits on another site, but I can't remember at the moment. I found a hedgehog from Reaper. I was able to get a whole wad of toads from one of the WOTC plastic mini sets a while back. However, the best ones that I've seen were the ones done by Splintered Light - unfortunately, 15mm. I've been trying to talk Jim Holloway into it, but he's just too busy with other things to tackle it.
I'm not familiar with the Dragon Age system.
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Piperdog wrote:
...but with the Siege Engine, we have the 12/18 target numbers...so the the 3-18 range for attributes are not actually necessary, just the modifiers. So I would suggest using the modifier as the score.....a strength of 0 is average, and 4 is an ogerish brute. This is easy enough. You just say....add your Dex to this die roll, or add your Strength to damage, etc. This is just one example of a reformat.
Holy crap! That's so simple it's amazing!! I knew I was having a problem wrapping my head around the attribute scores in relation to the Siege Engine, and I think you just distilled it for me. Get rid of the attribute scores, leave the modifiers, and nothing really changes!
I want to strip this system down and make it as easy as possible for my kids (ages 6 to 12) and this has triggered some really good ideas....
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Okay! So, who wants to do the rewrite of the basic rules??!!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!
Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html
Quote:
Holy crap! That's so simple it's amazing!! I knew I was having a problem wrapping my head around the attribute scores in relation to the Siege Engine, and I think you just distilled it for me. Get rid of the attribute scores, leave the modifiers, and nothing really changes!
I want to strip this system down and make it as easy as possible for my kids (ages 6 to 12) and this has triggered some really good ideas....
I am glad you like the idea! Dragon Age does this, and of course, StarSiege, as Mordrene pointed out. Harvesters is a kick ass concept, and the whole "animal folk as characters" is one that is pretty hot right now (MouseGuard, etc). The potential is huge. The problem is that the book is written for adults (grammar and word choices, formatting, etc), not children, but the fan base is, for the most part, meant to be children.
A rules rewrite aimed at teaching a child to play through reading the book would be quite a challenge though, but not impossible. A great example would be the old Marvel Superheroes Basic Set....It was a simple game, and more importantly, the book was written to intentionally communicate with and teach a ten year old how to play the game. How was this achieved? Well, for one, it wasn't the author writing about the rules, it was Spidey, talking to me just like Spidey would do, with large friendly font, and accompanying Spidey portraits (with him wearing a professors cap!). It went on to let the Thing take over, and of course, when Ben Grimm started speaking, you saw his portrait next to the text, and the writing style changed to depict that character. "So you wanna be a hero, huh? Listen up kid, it ain't that hard to get started. All you gotta do is..."
See what I mean? An approach to teaching the rules with a character or two, like a pair of mice adventurers perhaps, with accompanying portraits and so on, would greatly increase the teachability factor.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.
Quote:
Okay! So, who wants to do the rewrite of the basic rules??!!
Seriously, I would be interested in doing it! (once my C&C modules are completed; one is on Steves desk right now with a green light for publication, and I have four more in various stages of completion.) I think the game concept is pure gold, and the whole anthromorphic animal rpg thing is pretty hot right now. Making a super kid friendly version may make it a viable game for elementary schools, which could launch a whole future generation of rpg zealots (and make TLG a little more cashola).
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.
thought I would mention reaper minis has for figures that might work for harvesters.
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Gamers are the only people I know that get away with bragging about the things they pretend to do.
My Gaming blog http://gamingronin.blogspot.com/
Ronin77 wrote:
thought I would mention reaper minis has for figures that might work for harvesters.
I love the acorn on the shield!!
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I love the mini's. They look great.
I read over the system and thought it was pretty good. I did have some thoughts.
I like the idea of a badger (or mouse) riding a epihippus, but why are horses mentioned?
How about 'Racing Snails'? Maybe mice could ride stag beetles.
Also, why do the druids have the 'speak with animals' spell?
Overall, its a fun system!!
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Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
I read over the system and thought it was pretty good. I did have some thoughts.
I like the idea of a badger (or mouse) riding a epihippus, but why are horses mentioned?
How about 'Racing Snails'? Maybe mice could ride stag beetles.
Also, why do the druids have the 'speak with animals' spell?
Overall, its a fun system!!
_________________
Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
Falinor wrote:
I love the mini's. They look great.
I read over the system and thought it was pretty good. I did have some thoughts.
I like the idea of a badger (or mouse) riding a epihippus, but why are horses mentioned?
How about 'Racing Snails'? Maybe mice could ride stag beetles.
Also, why do the druids have the 'speak with animals' spell?
Overall, its a fun system!!
This system was meant to be run with the Basic Rule system. That didn't happen, obviously. So, there are some spells that may cause some puzzlement. The "Speak with animals" is still a viable spell - not all animals will speak the same language, especially if you are in a remote place or in another land altogether.
I didn't/don't have horses in my game- that was an "opps" that snuck through. But, I do have a couple of critters that can be used for transportation, beetles being one of them. You should feel free to add anything you want to your game that makes sense or sounds like fun.
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Overall, it is a great concept executed very well.
I bought it because it looked fun and I have a feeling that my players (all adults) will have fun playing.
Thanks for great job.
_________________
Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
I bought it because it looked fun and I have a feeling that my players (all adults) will have fun playing.
Thanks for great job.
_________________
Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.
Falinor wrote:
Overall, it is a great concept executed very well.
I bought it because it looked fun and I have a feeling that my players (all adults) will have fun playing.
Thanks for great job.
Thank you for the kinds words!
There is more in the works - hopefully, some of it will see the light of day soon!
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!
Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html