Clerics and Bludgeons

[Ogre]

Ok, I absolutely love the archetype of the cleric with a mace, I just can't picture clerics using blades of any kind, however, I can't think of ANY logical reason how this could be explained to a player running a cleric.

Any help appreciated.

[Rigon]

Deitial doctrine.

R-
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[Ogre]

I know not all dietial doctrine makes sense... but what would be the logic behind a dietial doctrine against using weapons other than bludgeons.

[Rigon]

A nature deity might prefer its clerics to use clubs or staffs.

I was never really into the mace as a good weapon for a cleric. I always prefered the warhammer. It really only boils down to how you set up the doctorine for your deities as to what types of weapons clerics can use.

R-
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[Go0gleplex]

Blades were the mark of the knight or man-at-arms. Clerics were soldiers of their god(s) but not sworn fighting men, thereby the weapons of such were forbidden to them. However, good honest bludgeoning weapons could be used by any man of any rank with the strength to swing one.

Okay...so it's pure sophistry...
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[clavis123]

Medieval catholic clergy were forbidden by canon law from shedding blood. Some priests and bishops, however, were also feudal lords who commanded troops. So, they used maces, which technically don't shed blood (because they lack an edge).

It's important to remember that being a priest or bishop in the Middle Ages was as much a political office as a spiritual one. The Pope was a literal King in central Italy. While the idea of a priest busting heads might be strange to us, it was a lot less strange to medieval people. As long as the priest didn't didn't "shed blood" by using a sword, he could fulfill both his religious and possible military duties.
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[Ogre]

clavis123 wrote:
Medieval catholic clergy were forbidden by canon law from shedding blood. Some priests and bishops, however, were also feudal lords who commanded troops. So, they used maces, which technically don't shed blood (because they lack an edge).

It's important to remember that being a priest or bishop in the Middle Ages was as much a political office as a spiritual one. The Pope was a literal King in central Italy. While the idea of a priest busting heads might be strange to us, it was a lot less strange to medieval people. As long as the priest didn't didn't "shed blood" by using a sword, he could fulfill both his religious and possible military duties.

I've always heard that but I can't find any actual historical evidence to back it up, just hearsay.

[Ogre]

From Wikipedia, not the best source I know.

Quote:
It is popularly believed that maces were employed by the clergy in warfare to avoid shedding blood (sine effusione sanguinis). The evidence for this is sparse and appears to derive almost entirely from the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux wielding a club-like mace at the Battle of Hastings in the Bayeux Tapestry, the idea being either that he did so to avoid shedding blood or bearing the arms of war. The fact that his brother Duke William carries a similar item suggests that, in this context, the mace may have been simply a symbol of authority. Certainly, other Bishops were depicted bearing the arms of a knight without comment, such as Archbishop Turpin who bears both a spear and a sword named "Almace" in the The Song of Roland or Bishop Adhemar of Le Puy, who also appears to have fought as a knight during the First Crusade, an expedition that Odo joined and died during.

[Ogre]

On top of that, a Mace will bloody up someone easy, so I don't really like that theory.

[Ogre]

Ok, here is the explanation I have decided to live with.

Clerics spend their lives battling the forces of undead, that is one of their primary functions, Bludgeons work best for physical combat against most undead, therefore clerics forgo training in all other weapons to train with these bludgeoning weapons.

...

Yeah... that'll do.

[brotherdew]

I have always liked to use the morning star or flail for my clerics. I also like the idea of an axe. After all, the best way to make sure an undead is real dead is decapitation.
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[ArgoForg]

The details on the use of maces might be hard to find in historical precedent, but the whole bit about canon law keeping them from shedding blood is spot-on. That's why during the purging of heresies fire, water, the rack, and other 'bloodless' devices were the recommended means of eliciting a confession.

I'd say that you made a pretty good call, anyway. The fact that they stand against the undead and bludgeoning weapons work well on undead is a pretty good argument for clerics being restricted to blunt weapons.

(That being said, I generally offer my players the choice of a single weapon devoted to their god in addition to the standard cleric selections. It makes sense, in my mind, for the priest of an agricultural god to have a sickle or a scythe.)
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[CKDad]

ArgoForg wrote:
The details on the use of maces might be hard to find in historical precedent, but the whole bit about canon law keeping them from shedding blood is spot-on.

There's some mention of this doctrine in the Bayeux Tapestry museum in Normandy, on the placards near Biship Odo's mace. Saw this myself a couple years ago on a visit to Normandy.
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[serleran]

In C&C, by the rules, clerics are allowed to use the weapons of their deity. This means, for example, if some powerful deity wields a two-handed sword and is known for such acts through the myth and lore of the faith, his clerics will also probably wield such weaponry. What this means, in terms of completely restricting clerics to non-edged weapons is that all the deities also don't use them... which can have some interesting ramifications, especially as it concerns blasphemy and people like fighters (who, undoubtedly, even without their knowledge, serve god of war) and the potential afterlife.

Me, I like to think that the bludgeoning weapons are more cruel, as they do not kill under many circumstances (they maim, bruise, break and injure...) which, like the gods, make clerics the perfect exemplar for the fickle nature of who they worship.
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[Aladar]

clavis123 wrote:
Medieval catholic clergy were forbidden by canon law from shedding blood. Some priests and bishops, however, were also feudal lords who commanded troops. So, they used maces, which technically don't shed blood (because they lack an edge).

It's important to remember that being a priest or bishop in the Middle Ages was as much a political office as a spiritual one. The Pope was a literal King in central Italy. While the idea of a priest busting heads might be strange to us, it was a lot less strange to medieval people. As long as the priest didn't didn't "shed blood" by using a sword, he could fulfill both his religious and possible military duties.

You guys really want to see a movie about political appointments into the clergy and the conflicts that can arise, watch the 1964 movie "Becket" with Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole. Great movie!
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[Joe]

Ogre wrote:
Ok, I absolutely love the archetype of the cleric with a mace, I just can't picture clerics using blades of any kind, however, I can't think of ANY logical reason how this could be explained to a player running a cleric.

Any help appreciated.

No blades???

How is a cleric going to reap what he sows without a scythe?

"Bringing in the sheaves...bringing in the sheaves...we shall come rejoicing bringing in the sheaves."

Have you ever tried to reap with a mace?

I understand the concept of using what the deity may have used in legend, but the concept of a divine being preferring one mortal tool over another always sounded silly to me.

Can you imagine a forum of the gods where they sit and debate their favored weapons.

St. Cuthbert: "Everyone knows any cleric worth a crap uses blunt weapons"

Heironeous: "Oh you ignorant DEMI-god, swords is the shiznit!"

Some pacifist healing goddess: Sigh, boys and their toys.

Orcus: Your all idiots! I use whatver the &^$%^* I want! and you will all kneel before me"

Most High Moderator: Let there be light upon this subject. Now everyone simmer down and remember to be polite and follow forum guidlines. I don't want to have to lock this thread!

Orcus shuts off his computer and sits looking dejectd.
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[Galadrin]

"Those who live by the sword..."

Religious restriction seems reasonable enough for me, even if it has no real world parallel.

[Joe]

It does have a real world comparison though.

The historical fighting cleric is what EGG was shooting for as far as I can figure, and those are friars swinging big maces and qstaves.

If we have rituals of feetwashing, why not ritualistic weapons?

It just strikes me how much humanity we project onto divinity that I like to point at it when I see it.
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[Go0gleplex]

One of the things I was noticing is that clerics have no missile weapons available to them. I would have thought they'd at least have slings available to them. A nice non-edged peasant weapon, yet they have daggers. The mind boggles.
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[serleran]

Clerics don't project.
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[Go0gleplex]

[quote="serleran"]Clerics don't project.[/quote]

They do if they've eaten a lot of beans!
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society