Hardcover idea...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:53 am

My soft cover Of Gods and Monsters, PH and even my M&T are looking pretty darn rough already, so I would really like to get a HC, so I was wondering, have you Trolls looked into selling via Lulu, or RPGNow if they ever get their system going?

That way we get to choose if we are willing to pay the HC price or not? OF course after tomorrow we won't get free shipping in the US anymore, but I would like the option to be able to get an HC if I am willing to pay the price, so can you guys do it? I mean will you guys do it, because I know you can?
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Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:36 pm

I don't think it will happen Tree. I don't know about RPGNow's plans, but as to Lulu, there is next to no profit made for the authors. I researched this exhaustively back when I wanted to self-publish, and the profit margin is laughable (if you want to keep your books priced within normal ranges). It is far more profitable to go through a commercial offset printing company to do it (of course, that is a lot of up front cash), and even more profitable to purchase the equipment to do hardcovers themselves (which is what I heard they are looking into).

For a guy like me, with a family, full time job, and two newly launched business ventures (non-rpg!), if I wanted to get started self-publishing, Lulu is a good place to start with minimal fuss, but for an established company.....not so good methinks.

I feel your pain though my friend. I really want a hardcover Monsters of Aihrde book! Mine is already suffering greatly from me carrying it around like Linus carries his blanket.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:26 pm

I sure do want to spend some of my hard-earned dollars on TLG hardback books.

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:05 pm

I have a great love for hardcover books and wish all RPGs were made that way, except for box sets... and those need to use Necromancer Games' boxes.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:56 am

Wait...I thought they were hardback.

Are you saying the new PHB and M&T are not hardback books?

They are advertised as hardbound.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:01 am

Yes the PHB and the M&T are both Hardback. TLG's current trend has been for softback though to keep the costs to the consumer low.

~O
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:11 am

Piperdog wrote:
I don't think it will happen Tree. I don't know about RPGNow's plans, but as to Lulu, there is next to no profit made for the authors.

That would imply that there was profit involved in writing games.

I'm not sure what your numbers were but I am not seeing any profit in any of this.
I plan to self publish and the best I am looking at is being able to pay for a reprint. That I will consider a success!

If you actually have numbers that show how one could spend long hours working on rpgs and make a profit, please PM me and share those numbers with me if you would. i'd be all ears!

As it stands right now, I can either not pay the up front money and go POD. But that seems to bring limits to the quality of cover art if I read the meaning of "4 color cover" accurately.

Or I can literally take my retirement and put it towards printing with a traditional publisher. That is a LOT of money, and a huge risk, but the final product becomes a hardback of the quality I wanted. I guess there is the imprint option wher instead of Lulu, some other company takes your profit and you have less control over the final product, but I don't see that as a good option either.

My numbers show no real profitting, just making enough money to continue publishing which is my goal.

Assuming I am going to die fairly early as a result of my life habits, I am not as worried about blowing my retirement as say...my wife but the issue is still there.

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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:58 am

There are very few companies that can publish hardcovers these days. Depending on the type of hardcover, they're either expensive, or hideously expensive. There are three different types of hardcover that you generally find in role playing game books, all distinguished by the manner in which the text block (all the pages making up the book) are bound into the book. Rated from best to worst...

1. Side sewn: The text block has all the leaves (pages) sewn together at a distance of approximately one-half inch from the left edge. The text block is then glued to the spine of the book and has fabric hinges which attach to the endpapers that make up the first and last leaves of the text block. The advantage is durability. This type of binding is used in textbooks and the binding can take a tremendous amount of abuse before becoming damaged. About the only downside I can think of regarding these books is that they don't lie flat. Example: Early prints of the 1st Edition AD&D PHB, MM, and DMG.

2. Smythe sewn: This is the typical hardcover book binding, in that the leaves of the book are put together into signatures of 16 or 32 pages. These signatures are then sewn together. Hinges may be fabric. If the book is supposed to lie flat, a fabric backing is glued to the signatures. The cover is attached but no glue is applied to the spine. If it isn't important for the book to lie flat, the fabric backing can be omitted and the signatures are directly glued to the spine. The advantage is that this is the most common hardcover binding and thus is less expensive to produce than a side sewn binding while being nearly as durable. The disadvantage is that the threads used to hold the signatures together are exposed and can be broken, compromising the book's structural integrity. Example: C&C PHB, M&T, MERP 2d Edition Collector's Hardcover.

3. Glue binding: This is the lowest quality hardcover binding. This is essentially a softcover book with a board cover. Leaves are not held together with thread but are simply glued to the spine. There is no fabric used in the book at all. Hinges are paper, and there's no backing to the text block. The advantage is cost. This is the least expensive binding possible, and the likely binding used at Lulu. The disadvantage is that the glue can eventually lose strength and elasticity, and thus the pages begin to fall out. Examples: Later 1st Edition AD&D books (especially Unearthed Arcana), Champions (4th Edition and on), Codex of Erde.

If you are like me and take good care of your books, even a glue binding will last for a long time. There are of course a couple exceptions. Unearthed Arcana and the Champions 4th Edition hardcover comes to mind. However, if people really desire a high quality hardcover that will last a long time, going through Lulu isn't an answer because the binding itself isn't any different from a softcover. The only thing different is the material the cover is made from.
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Sir Ironside · Post by **Sir Ironside** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:22 am

Joe wrote:
Or I can literally take my retirement and put it towards printing with a traditional publisher. That is a LOT of money, and a huge risk, but the final product becomes a hardback of the quality I wanted. I guess there is the imprint option wher instead of Lulu, some other company takes your profit and you have less control over the final product, but I don't see that as a good option either.

http://www.bookprinters.com/
Diaspora seems to be doing OK with Lulu, but they buy in bulk. Just a heads up, Guild of Blades is not a good option for POD. A friend of mine used them and was very dissatisfied with both the quality and customer service.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:56 pm

Yeah, I meant for the books that haven't been HC's, like of Gods and Monsters and M&T of Airhrde. I mentioned the PH and M&T because I have the soft covers of those as well, and they are all showing a lot of wear.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:27 pm

Tree, my point is that through Lulu the binding is going to be the same regardless of what the cover is made of. Therefore, at least to me, unless it's for vanity reasons there is no reason to get a hardcover.

If Lulu offered a better binding along with the boards then there would be a benefit in getting a hardcover made up.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:53 pm

Traveller wrote:
Tree, my point is that through Lulu the binding is going to be the same regardless of what the cover is made of. Therefore, at least to me, unless it's for vanity reasons there is no reason to get a hardcover.

If Lulu offered a better binding along with the boards then there would be a benefit in getting a hardcover made up.

I have at least a half dozen HC's from Lulu and am happy with all of them. I have been looking through my EPICrpg and Dark Dungeons HC's a lot and have noticed nothing wrong with them.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:36 pm

I admit that the glue cracking like I described isn't all that likely, but it cannot be discounted. It's still a cheap binding for a hardcover book, no matter how you slice it.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:12 am

I have also had no problems with any of Lulu's hardbound blooks, even the 4 of the 400+ page books I have. I own about a dozen Lulu hardbound books, and all of them still have good bindings. I can't complain... yet.
~O
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:21 am

Traveller wrote:
I admit that the glue cracking like I described isn't all that likely, but it cannot be discounted. It's still a cheap binding for a hardcover book, no matter how you slice it.

Fortunately glue cracking is the easiest of such problems to fix.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:06 am

If for nothing other than quality control, I would prefer the Trolls make hardcover versions of the books rather than Lulu. That way I'm guaranteed to get a high quality book that will last.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:09 am

Traveller wrote:
If for nothing other than quality control, I would prefer the Trolls make hardcover versions of the books rather than Lulu. That way I'm guaranteed to get a high quality book that will last.

Totally agree. Until they can do so I would like other options with which to get HC's.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:50 pm

Tree,

As you know we have a full fledged print shop. We've expanded it twice since its inception, one of those expansions is the hardware to allow us to do hardbound books. Now, the problem is that the case binding (wrapping the cover foil around the chip board) is something we cannot do, HOWEVER, I have found a shop that can do it.

So what does this mean? TLG has once again started down the road to binding our own hardbacks. We are in the experimental phase and there are a couple of hurdles to overcome, but I am confident that in the near future we will be able to manufacture our own HC books.

To be clear, we have already printed and bound about 2 dozen test copies of a HC Gods and Monsters. We are running into several problems.

1 The most worrisome is a cracking in the exterior hinge joint (where the cover chip board meets the spine). We've solved this by using a different coating, though haven't received test copies from case binder.

2 End sheets. Inserting these as part of the signature block.

3 Inserting the band into the spine.

I am very confident that we will master these in the coming weeks or so. I've instructed Mark that any free moments he has in the shop are to be devoted to mastering this process.

Hope that helps,

Steve
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:41 pm

That sounds awesome! I can wait.
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Fat Dragon Games · Post by **Fat Dragon Games** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:34 am

That's awesome news Steve. I've already dinged up my copy of M&ToA and would love to get a hardcover of it.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:26 pm

It's welcome news, indeed. Way to go, Trolls!

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:02 pm

Quote:
That would imply that there was profit involved in writing games.

I'm not sure what your numbers were but I am not seeing any profit in any of this.

Unless your a corporate giant, which most game companies are not, then you are absolutely right. My brother and I mulled over the idea of starting our own game company for the last couple of years, but no matter how we ran the numbers....it didn't look very promising. The return on your time spent is hard to explain to a non-gaming spouse.

TLG has invested in their own print shop, and have Chenault and Gray Publishing to financially boost their position. When I looked into commercial offset printing as opposed to Lulu, the profit margins were far, far greater.....in the long term.....if you sold everything you printed....and you shelled out thousands for bulk printings. Or you can go with someone like Lulu, where you don't make much per sale, but you don't have to fork over a ton of cash to get started, don't have to deal with orders, stocking, shipping, etc. If it's a great product, the demand may move it into distribution (look at Labyrinth Lord as an example).

Hey, Joe, didn't you have a game ready to launch? I know you were working on it.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:05 am

Wrapping it up in the next couple months!

I am weighing my options. Some things about POD, like the quality of the covers, and quality control has me concerned.

I want to offer superior quality at affordable prices...and your right...the window is narrow and closing. I will consider it a plus if I break even, but I need to do better than that in order to continue publishing.

When I see established companies flirting with POD it tells me others are getting the same numbners you and I have.

Luckily my spouse does game...and also allows me to keep a separate account...whew! And i am insane enough to go against the current, against the trends, against the economy, against common sentiment, against known marketing schemes, well you get the picture.

Piper, if you would like to save all the work, just throw the money my way, and I'll give you credit as "Suga Daddy".

Enough money and I'll grant you "Suga MAC Daddy" might even throw a Grand Poobah in there.
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Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:06 pm

Quote:
Enough money and I'll grant you "Suga MAC Daddy" might even throw a Grand Poobah in there.

Grand Poobah it is!
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