I was just playing Where Cool Waters Run this weekend, and the monster therein can overbear. The module gives two versions of the same monster, one in the stat block and one as an M&ToA excerpt.
Besides differing setups for the overbearing to occur, one just says the creature gets to overbear, the other says the creature may overbear and this means the victim gets a dexterity save or falls prone (replacing overbear maneuver?)
My question is really this, though. How do you use the normal overbear conmbat maneuver with a monster, or for that matter, any that require an ability modifier? I think adding HD instead of an ability modifier would make monsters awfully powerful.
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Sir Aergraith Aethelmar of Cyrswud, CaCS,OotF
Monster overbearing
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Monster overbearing
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Well, good question. The standard C&C answer will likely be it's your game do what feels right. It's a rules light game by design, and no one is going to call the Troll Police if you don't. If you don't believe me here is the quote:
While "the Waters" may say simply use the Dexterity thing, if it's Overbearing, well then I'm using Overbearing. It's really not that difficult of a concept. But if its speed your after, use the Dexertity thing and move out, just be consistant. Ok with the disclaimer officially stated, lets do the logical thing (at least it seems logical to me anyway) and look at the 'rules.'
Ok so, the 1st paragraph states "animal attacks" and "hand to hand" that to me also means "monster attacks".
So it sounds like in your case a monster attacked a player character. The Player Character in "overbearing" scenario as defender has an Armor Class of 15. The Monster (aka. Attacker) rolls a d20 and adds its strength modifier and a size modifier (if any) (meaning if the monster is larger than the player character it gets a +2 "to hit" for each size difference, if it was smaller it would get a -2 "to hit" for each size difference.
Lets add a bit more fluff though for this to make a clear example. A 3rd level Human Fighter (Size: Medium) is in the middle of a melee with an Ogre (Size: Large). The Ogre wins initiative and decides he'll knock this hummie to the ground using "Overbearing." The Ogre has the "giant" TYPE, it also gets a +3 damage with a weapon (I read this as due to its size and giant type they hit with something very, very powerfully for damage) and a Hit Die of 4, which means a +4 "to Hit". In comparison, a 3rd level Fighter has a +3 "to hit", an additional +1 "to hit" with a long sword based on Weapons Specialization (Fighter Ability) (and an a +1 to damage), and lets say our stalward Fighter has an 18 Strength meaning another +3 "to hit" (and damage)
So looking at the stats, we've the Ogre with a +4 "to Hit" and a +3 Damage with a weapon verses the Fighter with a +7 "to hit" and a +4 to damage. In a straight up fight, this 3rd Level Fighter seems to have the advantage. The Ogre has an Armor Class of 16 and the Fighter (who has full plate and large steel shield) has an AC of 19. The Fighter will likely hit more, and do slightly more damage.
In the case of "Overbearing," the Ogre has a +6 "to Hit" (+4 Hit Die and +2 Size Modifier as the Ogre is one size larger than the Human Fighter). Against the Fighter's Overbearing Armor Class of 15. The Platemail and shield aren't going to help keep the Fighter Standing when a "giant" TYPE is attempting to simply knock him over. The Ogre for his attempt though is reduce to an AC of 14 due to being more exposed, whether the Ogre was successful or not. The "Overbearing" attack actually kind of evens the odds for this Ogre against the Fighter so knocking the Hummie down is to the Ogre's advantage and very much in the Ogre's attempt to get the upper hand in a fight.
At least in this specific case, I don't see a need for any additional modifiers. So the everything stands as is. In resolution, lets say the Ogre rolls a 10 - not so good, but his modifier "to hit" makes it a 16, which is more than enough to beat the AC 15 Overbearing Armor Class of the Fighter. So our Fighter PC is knocked to the ground prone for the remainder of that round. Meaning everyone attacking our Fighter gets a +5 "to Hit" Situational Modifier (see page 118 of the Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, 3rd Printing or check out the Castle Keeper's Screen). Additionally, the Fighter takes 1-2 Subdual Damage (in this case a d6 is rolled and a 5 comes up meaning 2 damage) and I'd add in the +3 Damage (again Sudual), for a grand total of 5 Sudual Damage to our Fighter.
Why the additional +3? (I added this in as an edit after Nothing's post below so Kudos and thanks for Nothing! ) Well the Ogre has an option of a "Slam" attack which does 1-10 Damage, or getting a +3 Damage using a weapon. Slam doesn't actually have a descriptor anywhere in the Monsters & Treasures, 2nd Printing. If you read through the various monster (everything from Behirs to Ogres, to Elementals to Zombies have it) entries with the "Slam" attack, it kind of alludes to hitting, pummelling, smashing, etc. So since "Overbearing" is a specific type of attack and NOT a "Slam" attack, due to its Giant Type descriptor, I agree that the +3 Weapon Damage bonus stands as something that size and strength knocking someone over is going to hurt.
NOTE: "Slam" Attack is something that might need to be describe and updated somewhere if it isn't already in the new printings, at least - hopefully - in the Castle Keeper Guide (IMHO).
I personally don't think adding in the Hit Die makes the monster too powerful at all. The Fighter in this case could attempt to Overbear the Ogre. Since it is only one size larger the Fighter could indeed - if successful - knock the Ogre to the ground. The Ogre as Defender gets a AC 15 (which is easier "to hit" than its normal AC of 16. The Fighter in this case would have a -2 "to hit" due to the Size Modifier, and +3 "to Hit" because of his Strength. Meaning a +1 "to Hit" overall. But here is the Key, "...or other modifier that the Castle Keeper deems fit. The Castle Keeper may or may not deem the basic to hit bonus an appropriate modifier." And I do think the the Basic To Hit Bonus is appropriate because we're dealing with a trained Fighter here. So our stalward Fighter would get the additional +3 "to Hit" meaning an overall +4 "to Hit" which makes him about even to knock down the Ogre using Overbearing.
Anyway, hope this helps!
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R is among the most menacing of sounds. Thats why they call it murder, not muckduck. DWIGHT SHRUTE, The Office
Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, 3rd Printing, page 109 wrote:
So it is only fitting that before delving further into the rules and mechanics
for running a game of Castles & Crusades, it must first be said that the rules are the servant of the game, not its master. These rules are designed to be amended, changed, adjusted, added to and customized in order to best serve the wants of its players desires and needs. The Castle Keeper and players are encouraged to consult with one another and make decisions concerning changes or amendments to the rules provided in this book. This can only make the game better.
While "the Waters" may say simply use the Dexterity thing, if it's Overbearing, well then I'm using Overbearing. It's really not that difficult of a concept. But if its speed your after, use the Dexertity thing and move out, just be consistant. Ok with the disclaimer officially stated, lets do the logical thing (at least it seems logical to me anyway) and look at the 'rules.'
Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, 3rd Printing, page 117 wrote:
This type of attack is used to knock an opponent down. This is a tactic used in wrestling and other types of hand-to-hand combat, as well as when an animal charges and knocks someone over. The attacker rolls a d20 to hit and adds any strength modifier or other modifier that the Castle Keeper deems fit. The Castle Keeper may or may not deem the basic to hit bonus an appropriate modifier.
As with grappling, a standard armor class of 15 is used for all defenders. For overbearing, however, only strength and size difference modifies the standard armor class. For each size difference larger add +2, and for each size difference smaller subtract -2. If a hit is successful, the defender is knocked prone for the remainder of that round. An attacker cannot knock over a defender two sizes larger. In addition, the defender takes 1-2 points of subdual damage. An attacker attempting to overbear suffers a -2 penalty to armor class because they are more exposed than usual. The penalty remains to their armor class for the combat round.
Ok so, the 1st paragraph states "animal attacks" and "hand to hand" that to me also means "monster attacks".
So it sounds like in your case a monster attacked a player character. The Player Character in "overbearing" scenario as defender has an Armor Class of 15. The Monster (aka. Attacker) rolls a d20 and adds its strength modifier and a size modifier (if any) (meaning if the monster is larger than the player character it gets a +2 "to hit" for each size difference, if it was smaller it would get a -2 "to hit" for each size difference.
Lets add a bit more fluff though for this to make a clear example. A 3rd level Human Fighter (Size: Medium) is in the middle of a melee with an Ogre (Size: Large). The Ogre wins initiative and decides he'll knock this hummie to the ground using "Overbearing." The Ogre has the "giant" TYPE, it also gets a +3 damage with a weapon (I read this as due to its size and giant type they hit with something very, very powerfully for damage) and a Hit Die of 4, which means a +4 "to Hit". In comparison, a 3rd level Fighter has a +3 "to hit", an additional +1 "to hit" with a long sword based on Weapons Specialization (Fighter Ability) (and an a +1 to damage), and lets say our stalward Fighter has an 18 Strength meaning another +3 "to hit" (and damage)
So looking at the stats, we've the Ogre with a +4 "to Hit" and a +3 Damage with a weapon verses the Fighter with a +7 "to hit" and a +4 to damage. In a straight up fight, this 3rd Level Fighter seems to have the advantage. The Ogre has an Armor Class of 16 and the Fighter (who has full plate and large steel shield) has an AC of 19. The Fighter will likely hit more, and do slightly more damage.
In the case of "Overbearing," the Ogre has a +6 "to Hit" (+4 Hit Die and +2 Size Modifier as the Ogre is one size larger than the Human Fighter). Against the Fighter's Overbearing Armor Class of 15. The Platemail and shield aren't going to help keep the Fighter Standing when a "giant" TYPE is attempting to simply knock him over. The Ogre for his attempt though is reduce to an AC of 14 due to being more exposed, whether the Ogre was successful or not. The "Overbearing" attack actually kind of evens the odds for this Ogre against the Fighter so knocking the Hummie down is to the Ogre's advantage and very much in the Ogre's attempt to get the upper hand in a fight.
At least in this specific case, I don't see a need for any additional modifiers. So the everything stands as is. In resolution, lets say the Ogre rolls a 10 - not so good, but his modifier "to hit" makes it a 16, which is more than enough to beat the AC 15 Overbearing Armor Class of the Fighter. So our Fighter PC is knocked to the ground prone for the remainder of that round. Meaning everyone attacking our Fighter gets a +5 "to Hit" Situational Modifier (see page 118 of the Castles & Crusades Players Handbook, 3rd Printing or check out the Castle Keeper's Screen). Additionally, the Fighter takes 1-2 Subdual Damage (in this case a d6 is rolled and a 5 comes up meaning 2 damage) and I'd add in the +3 Damage (again Sudual), for a grand total of 5 Sudual Damage to our Fighter.
Why the additional +3? (I added this in as an edit after Nothing's post below so Kudos and thanks for Nothing! ) Well the Ogre has an option of a "Slam" attack which does 1-10 Damage, or getting a +3 Damage using a weapon. Slam doesn't actually have a descriptor anywhere in the Monsters & Treasures, 2nd Printing. If you read through the various monster (everything from Behirs to Ogres, to Elementals to Zombies have it) entries with the "Slam" attack, it kind of alludes to hitting, pummelling, smashing, etc. So since "Overbearing" is a specific type of attack and NOT a "Slam" attack, due to its Giant Type descriptor, I agree that the +3 Weapon Damage bonus stands as something that size and strength knocking someone over is going to hurt.
NOTE: "Slam" Attack is something that might need to be describe and updated somewhere if it isn't already in the new printings, at least - hopefully - in the Castle Keeper Guide (IMHO).
I personally don't think adding in the Hit Die makes the monster too powerful at all. The Fighter in this case could attempt to Overbear the Ogre. Since it is only one size larger the Fighter could indeed - if successful - knock the Ogre to the ground. The Ogre as Defender gets a AC 15 (which is easier "to hit" than its normal AC of 16. The Fighter in this case would have a -2 "to hit" due to the Size Modifier, and +3 "to Hit" because of his Strength. Meaning a +1 "to Hit" overall. But here is the Key, "...or other modifier that the Castle Keeper deems fit. The Castle Keeper may or may not deem the basic to hit bonus an appropriate modifier." And I do think the the Basic To Hit Bonus is appropriate because we're dealing with a trained Fighter here. So our stalward Fighter would get the additional +3 "to Hit" meaning an overall +4 "to Hit" which makes him about even to knock down the Ogre using Overbearing.
Anyway, hope this helps!
_________________
R is among the most menacing of sounds. Thats why they call it murder, not muckduck. DWIGHT SHRUTE, The Office
Nothing wrote:
Monster HD doesn't give a damage bonus. You're playing the game wrong!
Oops! Thanks for catch on the Math and Rules! LOL! Yes you are correct. Monster HD does not give a bonus damage only a "To Hit" bonus. I made the edit above, let me know if that works. Also agree with you in regards to the +3 "Weapon Damage" more as a Strength Type bonus due to the Ogre's Giant Type.
_________________
R is among the most menacing of sounds. Thats why they call it murder, not muckduck. DWIGHT SHRUTE, The Office
Looks good.
Slap or Slam:
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... slaporSlam
Slap or Slam:
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... slaporSlam