Attribute Check/Saving Throw + Character Level

AnthonyPaulO · Post by **AnthonyPaulO** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:48 pm

Hello everyone,

I'm confused as to when to apply the character level to attribute checks since the manual is very vague on the subject. Currently I do D20 + level + attributeModifier + racialModifier for all my checks. Does anyone have the official rule that states exactly when to apply level checks and when not to?

Many thanks,

Anthony

p.s. I'm also curious if there is a C&C meetup website or something so I can see if any are in the NYC area.

AnthonyPaulO · Post by **AnthonyPaulO** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:50 pm

serleran wrote:
Level is not added for "cross-class/cross-race" abilities, such as a fighter trying to use Move Silently since that is not a class ability of fighter. If the fighter were an elf, however, level would be added because elfs get Move Silently as a racial trait.

Some times, for specific combat maneuvers, like grapple, level may not be added.

Otherwise, unless there is a good reason for it, level is always added.

It does not get more clear.

Thanks for replying,

You state that it doesn't get more clear, yet you also state that "sometimes" it's used, "sometimes" it's not. It's the "sometimes" that I would like clarification on. Is it only for certain combat maneuvers? If so, which ones beside grapple? If not, where else does it apply (eg. Spellcasting)?

Also, saving throws use attribute checks as well; I assume there are situations here where "sometimes" I'll use level, "sometimes" not? Please excuse my ignorance on the subject, I am a newbie when it comes to this and I'm programming a game engine based on these mechanics which is why I'm trying to be thorough.

Many thanks yet again!

Anthony

AnthonyPaulO · Post by **AnthonyPaulO** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:48 pm

serleran wrote:
Castle Keepers make decisions on the situation, deciding whether the individual gets their level added or not... hence, sometimes. By the rules, unless the situation specifically says "no level" as it does for use of an ability you do not actually possess, then level is assumed to be added -- however, any given CK can modify that as they see fit.

So, if it does not say "no level" then level is added... unless your Castle Keeper says no level.

Thank you, that helps substantially!

Thanks a million,

Anthony

Mark Hall · Post by **Mark Hall** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:15 pm

My rule is "If it's something the character should be good at, they get their level." In many cases, this is covered by race/class. The Dwarf ALWAYS gets his level on stonecraft-related checks. The Thief ALWAYS gets his level on Traps checks.

Other times, it's based on character background. Our Human Ranger is from the Tuigan tribes, so was more or less born in the saddle. He can add his level to riding-related checks. Our Human Fighter is a nobleman... he gets to add his level to appraising and heraldry, because that's what he's been raised to do.

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:34 pm

I was just talking about this the other day on a different thread. I do it a lot like Mark. I add level when it seems appropriate. A scrawny mage character attempting to batter down a door doesn't get to add level to his strength check in my campaign and a fighter wouldn't get a level bonus to research something in a library. The rules are vague, I believe, on purpose. It gives freedom to the CK to run the game however he and the players feel is appropriate for the campaign.
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Mark Hall · Post by **Mark Hall** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:45 pm

Piperdog wrote:
I was just talking about this the other day on a different thread. I do it a lot like Mark. I add level when it seems appropriate. A scrawny mage character attempting to batter down a door doesn't get to add level to his strength check in my campaign and a fighter wouldn't get a level bonus to research something in a library. The rules are vague, I believe, on purpose. It gives freedom to the CK to run the game however he and the players feel is appropriate for the campaign.

On the other hand, I would probably allow an Int-prime fighter who has always described himself as a well-read officer his level as a bonus when research.

Dagger · Post by **Dagger** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:38 pm

The way I look at all the components of an attribute check is:

1. Ability modifier represents natural capability

2. An ability being Prime represents having been trained in skills related to that ability

3. Class level represents experience

So, if the task at hand would be aided by being experienced in the character's class, then the level should be added. A thief is experienced at picking locks, so they add their level when attempting to do so. A fighter probably isn't experienced at picking locks, so they wouldn't add their level. Many castle keepers also consider the background of the character in that determination. A fighter who grew up in poverty may be good at begging and would add their level if making a charisma check to beg for gold for example.
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Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:13 pm

Quote:
On the other hand, I would probably allow an Int-prime fighter who has always described himself as a well-read officer his level as a bonus when research.

Right on. It's all about the character concept to me and my group. And if it makes sense regarding their concept, background, and the way the character is played, then we add it.
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Ronin77 · Post by **Ronin77** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:36 am

This took me a little bit to wrap my head around this at first. Now I see it as one of the most flexible aspects of the system.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:33 am

Ronin77 wrote:
This took me a little bit to wrap my head around this at first. Now I see it as one of the most flexible aspects of the system.

Yes, it most definitely is.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:42 pm

Dagger hit it pretty much on the head.

If the check is for something that is covered by a different class, no level is added to the check. This is assuming that you allow the check at all - some CKs don't allow a check for something that's a class ability of another class. If a fighter wants to try to disguise himself (an assassin and illusionist ability) I would not allow the fighter to add his level. Whether or not the fighter has Charisma Prime or not. The interesting thing is that the Fighter, if he has Charisma prime, might have a pretty good chance at succeeding, possibly even better than one who has that class ability (but not have Charisma prime).

But there's always mitigating circumstances, AnthonyPaulO (welcome to the Crusade, btw!), at least to me. Decipher Script, the bard ability. I might not allow a barbarian or a ranger make that check, at all. But I might let a wizard roll (with no character level added). If someone had in their backstory that they studied ancient or odd languages from a teacher, I might let them make a chack, too (and maybe even with a +1 bonus).

This might all sound confusing, and I didn't want to post with confounding you as my intention. If anything, I thought I'd demonstrate the flexibility of the system. Add what you want, when and how you want, all based on how you, the CK, see fit. No need to consult tons of tables or look up obscure rules. All to make the game flow nice and smooth.
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