Getting serious about C&C

[Snoring Rock]

I have been playing 3E for years and started Pathfinder as soon as 4E was released. I have to tell you, that it is a great iteration of the game, but I am exhausted. I cannot spend amother minute endlessly creating 2 page NPC stat-blocks. The higher level we get, the more homework required. The mirads of rules. I can hardly do anything mysterious as the DM without my players calling this rule or that rule in order to question my every move. Enough.

So...how do I convince my now munchkinized players that we need to take a step back and rid ourselves of the baggage?

[Omote]

Snoring Rock... my man!

Well, the best way to get the players on board is to have them play the game. Sure, it may take a while to get your players to realize the benefits of C&C over 3E/Pathfinder, but through the quality of play, the will know the greatness of C&C. I don't want to discourage you, but it took me the better part of 3 years to get some of my players on board with C&C. Now, we play weekly and don't think we will ever go back.

By running good games, and games that show the simplicity, yet fun game aspects of C&C, they will buy into it.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[tylermo]

It's funny you mentioned the stat blocks. I know a guy that wrote some adventures and/or supplements back in the d20 days. For a number of years now, he has been writing for the Savage Worlds system. He mentioned that writing stat blocks for d20(and I'm not quoting him directly)was one of the less desireable parts of the job. Incidentally, he's a big of Castles and Crusades. Even put it somewhere in his top ten rpg's as I recall. Good luck recruiting your players. It's hard to break people away from the big names(D&D 3 and 4, and Pathfinder in particular). It can be done, but it may take time. Not having feats like Even Greater Cleave, or Greater than Even Greater Cleave, or Greatest Great Cleave may leave some d20 fans empty. Good luck.

[anglefish]

Here's some ideas:
- Describe Prime as a +6 bonus and make the difficulty a flat 18. If you start munchkinized players at level three, they'll go "My Prime rolls are a 6 (prime)+3 (level) +2 (prime stat) = 11! I RAWKS at level 3 already!!!"

- Start new PCs at an XP level that's 3rd level for the majority of the party (and maybe level 4 for Rogues). It's hard to show off the benefits of the Siege system when your level bonus is a measly +1

- Squeeze in more than one fight a night. With C&C, you can artfully describe two or three combats a night.

- Play up that a PC background gives "free" skills. You may discover that some PC will suddenly have detailed career notes.

- Use the new Level and a half system. Some players are just not going to be happy unless they can do a dozen different things. But keep in mind, that some players are always going to push, no matter how much you give them.

- Start them off letting them use feats bonuses as Siege checks. i.e., Skills that don't step on the toes of another class get level bonuses and combat maneuvers use a Dex. or Str. Siege check.

--- The next step is to ask "And what else you want to do?" offering the whole library of combat feats (though you may want to add level restrictions on the more advanced ones.)

- Start a new campaign in the new system. Converting PCs will only invite comparisons.

- Give out some extra XP at first to have them get over their first level quickly and then pull back to regular XP by the time they hit 6th level or so.

- Play up a "Low level, high adventure" attitude. At 6th level or so, You can have them make some nice acrobatic checks, so you can have rooftop fights, swing from chandlers or other crazy stuff.

- Make smarter, low level reoccurring low level villains? How often does 3.x have you go after a Planar big bad? With the extended XP levels of C&C you can design a series of adventures that turns a Hobgoblin warlord into a fantasy version of Genghis Khan.

- I noticed in 3.x a lot of adventures revolve around demons (because they summon more monsters if needed), undead cannon fodder, and mind flayers. Embrace a chance to make a "classic" campaign. Use a lich, vampire, or a trio of hag sisters as the final big bad or even a werewolf.

- Play up the roleplaying part, give the local town a chance to be filled with NPCs the players will care about.
Frankly, I've been blessed with players that will play whatever I run. They will grumble and bitch about how 1e had longer spell durations and how cheap magic items are in 3.x, but they will play my game at the drop of a hat.

C&C maybe your litmus test, good luck.

[anglefish]

As for things not to do ...

The big regret from my own campaign was giving people bonuses that covered their personal weak spots.

C&C is about specialization AND archetypes ... unless your human. Then it;s about archetypes

If a player wants to be an elf thief, then he's going to pay a price because he doesn't have enough primes to cover his skill checks. He traded that in for "secret door" radar.

On the other hand, if the party doesn't have a tracker because there's no Ranger, then letting the Druid use class level for a Tracking roll is fine.

There's a difference between adding breadth to a PC as compared to avoiding the consequences.

[ArgoForg]

The one big thing that helped me was to point out how quickly rounds of combat can be blown through; compared to 3E/PF, combat didn't last nearly so long or take up half the night on its own. That completely blew my mind when I was running the system for the first time.

Another thing that may help is to let them know that Not Everything Has To Be Quantified in C&C. You don't need to add skills or feats-- although of you really want to, you can-- for a character to be able to do something. If your players feel like you do (that games are meant to be more than accounting sessions) then they'll appreciate that they can have a character built in 15-20 minutes, and all that extra time can instead be used for coming up with character background, or heck, just playing!
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- "Sorry, I just happen to prefer games where the GM is an actual arbitrator and not the wall to roll dice off to decide what happens."

[Mark Hall]

If they have problems getting past the "But I don't have any skills!", steal a page from Serelan (as I intend to, next time I play): Tell them to pick 3 things they are good at that aren't covered by their race or class. When doing those, they get to add their level (or half their level if it's covered by another class's abilities).

[Frost]

If you want to ease some of the transition, check out Omote's Advanced C&C rules (the link is in his sig).
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Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[Frost]

By the way, I came close converting my 3.5 campaign to C&C a few months ago, but it would have been too much of a pain. If you find a good way other than a TPK of the 3.5 characters, let me know.
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Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[mostrojoe]

The 4th edition is a real failure as an rpg, Pathfinder is the real future of D&D. ANyway, to bring my players in C&C I simply make the exemple of a skill check. Instead of a list of skills the SIege Engine uses primary and secondary attributes. Very easy, very elegant and very efficient.

[Falinor]

If you go over to C&C, it takes 5 minutes to level a character vs an hour or more in other systems. *cough* RoleMaster *cough*.
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Baron Falinor of Cherokee, Empire State of the South.

[Snoring Rock]

Omote, sir good to hear from you! I hope we can share a table again at the next GenCon. I expect you still have a marble fetish.

Frost, good to hear from you as my old friend from NG boards.

And to everyone else, thank you for the encouragement. C&C looks to have all the magic and mystery and wonder the original game had. That somehow was lost in the over codification of the game. Less sometimes is more.

Right now my group wil not even discuss the possibility. They are each so caught up in the feats and next exp pnts for the next power-up. I mean I have heard them say things like, "lets find something to kill for the right amount of experience in order to get a level so I can add this feat or that special ability, etc. I dont know, I know you want to level up..who does not? But somewhere the language has become less like adventurers trying to solve riddles and puzzles, and more like a race for power and special abilites and skill points. It has become mechanical.

As a player its all good I suppose. The DM however is faced with hours and hours of work. And....if you slip as DM in PF...they notice. They quote rules.

They feel I will be taking their accomplishments from them by taking this to another system. I have one player who , every week sends me emails trying to negotiate prices on these crazy over-powered, body-slot-less magic items. I am mentally exhausted.

[Snoring Rock]

Falinor wrote:
If you go over to C&C, it takes 5 minutes to level a character vs an hour or more in other systems. *cough* RoleMaster *cough*.

No kidding. I detailed the NPC's for Tegel Manor in two evenings. It is also an easy translation from 1e. Too cool.

[Relaxo]

to convince them, have them do the homework.

(evil grin)

Seriously, that was the turn off for me when 3e came out.

even in 2nd ed the books encouraged teh dm to wing it, in 3rd ed, having a gnoll cleric with 3 levels of monk and an undead archetype added on sounds cool, but the paperwork... who needs it?

I think we, teh C&C fans, tend to preach to the flock a lot.
Anywho, welcome, and I hope you all like it.

This (link below) may help them "get it"
http://www.lulu.com/product/file-downlo ... ng/3159558

in brief, in C&C the default answer is "YES*" not "No, Only if you have that skill/feat/ability/power"

*yes you can TRY... but often the failing is more fun. who says these games aren't like real life?
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"Relaxo"

[anglefish]

Quote:
"every week sends me emails trying to negotiate prices on these crazy over-powered, body-slot-less magic items. I am mentally exhausted."

There's your out. Tell him that if he bugs you about those costs and his munchining two more times, you will switch to a new game that's fun for you too. Hell, tell the whole party and have them do the policing for you.

Snoring Rock wrote:
They feel I will be taking their accomplishments from them by taking this to another system. I have one player who , every week sends me emails trying to negotiate prices on these crazy over-powered, body-slot-less magic items. I am mentally exhausted.

This is why I left 3.X. ... and why 3.X revitalized the game. Why sell to one DM when you can have products that sell to 5 players instead. It's not only the new toys, but also the "safety net" of rules that transfers ownership of the game from the GM to the players.

I suggest you ask them to send you a 3.5 NPC builder program for Christmas and tweak for PF.

Maybe it's time for one of your players to GM for a while and give you the break. That way, you have one PC to worry about (and feel the urge to improve) and another player can have the headache of the planning.

You might also do somethings that reduce the workload of you, You could introduce Defense rolls so that the players do all the rolling and bookkeeping and you can concentrate on the game.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adven ... heDice.htm

[Go0gleplex]

Could always start phasing it in slowly...like play three games of PF, then switch out for a game of C&C...and then it becomes 2 & 2... if they start enjoying it, then you can leave the other behind. Just tell 'em the DM needs some brain candy after all the grinding out stuff.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Frost]

Snoring Rock wrote:
So...how do I convince my now munchkinized players that we need to take a step back and rid ourselves of the baggage?

Quick question: Have they played earlier editions of D&D? If so, it might be easier than you think: "This is the game you remember playing."
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Lord Frost

Baron of the Pitt
Castles & Crusades Society
The Dungeoneering Dad

[finarvyn]

Being a DM is a lot of work, and I'll be darned if I'm going to put in all that work for a game system I don't like. I've been running a 4E game for a few months and am getting fed up with it. I'm about to launch another C&C game because I don't want to put up with 4E for a while.

Snoring Rock wrote:
So...how do I convince my now munchkinized players that we need to take a step back and rid ourselves of the baggage?

Simple. When I'm DM (or GM or CK or whatever) we play whatever rules set I want to run. If you don't like it, you can run something with rules you like better.

I used to have a couple of players who would whine about rules. Then I realized that there are lots of players and only a few DMs. That puts us in demand! Stand up for what you want and run the game you like!

Just my two coppers.
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Finarvyn

Lord Marshall, Earl of Stone Creek, C&C Society

C&C Playtester in 2003
OD&D player since 1975

[Malfi]

finarvyn wrote:
Simple. When I'm DM (or GM or CK or whatever) we play whatever rules set I want to run.

This.

Ofcourse if you go at them with a "we play what I want" mentality your team will fall apart.

Just say: Hey guys I am sorry but I am really tired of DMing 3.5, maybe somebody else could take the Dm's mantle?

If someone else accepts you get to play 3.5 and you can have fun as a player.

If noone accepts then propose playing C&C instead.

[Relaxo]

You could try this... the story involves the characters traveling thru a portal to another dimention... and once there, in the alternate dimention, you start playing C&C (convert the characters ahead of time, it won't be hard)

My old group did this once, we switched the quote unquote same characters from AD&D 2nd ed to a Gamma world game, for like 3 sessions, then something else, i can't recall, might have been gurps... it was trippy but sort of worked.

Or just pull rank and be like, I work full time, I don't ahve time for 3 ed rules
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"Relaxo"

[Omote]

Neat idea Relaxo.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[serleran]

I'd simply wait for them to do something in game that needs a rule clarification, and then pull out the C&C PHB and flip through it, pretend to find the rule, and then say "OK, you did it." After a few times of being an ass, they might catch on that the rules of C&C are somewhat more lenient and easier. If they do not, then kill them and take their stuff. Make sure you destroy any wills.
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Serl's Corner

[Snoring Rock]

serleran wrote:
I'd simply wait for them to do something in game that needs a rule clarification, and then pull out the C&C PHB and flip through it, pretend to find the rule, and then say "OK, you did it." After a few times of being an ass, they might catch on that the rules of C&C are somewhat more lenient and easier. If they do not, then kill them and take their stuff. Make sure you destroy any wills.

Kill and take the stuff....hahahahahaaaaaeeee.......

[Relaxo]

don't laugh, he's serious.
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"Relaxo"