AC bonus of Black Dragon armor?

[mabon5127]

The characters were fortunate enough to bring down a black dragon. The skin was taken with the intention of making a suit of fine armor. Has anyone encountered this before and have a play-tested idea for the AC bonus, cost, and weight of said armor?

My initial thoughts are AC+6, weight of leather, 2500gp (10x cost of banded) to cure and manufacture. The armor also gives its bonus to acid attacks and is treated as magic for the purposes of being destroyed.

Thanks!

Morgan

[Lord Crimson]

I would just make it scale mail that provided some acid resistance (and could be worn by druids). Maybe exceptional quality (though one might argue that should be based on the armorer's skill and not on the material).

Having further magical properties (including a better AC) would require someone actually enchanting it, in my mind.

That being said, Dragonscale Armor from 2nd edition AD&D got it's AC bonus as a factor of the deceased dragon's AC, IIRC. So it's not without precedence.

[mgtremaine]

I went through this recently with my party. I basically handled it as raw material and let the armorer give them various options. At the minimum it should expert work so x10 the base armor type. Since the material if pretty rare [at least in my game] enchantment seems to be a natural requirement. The party had enough hide to make 2 suits of small armor, 1 for a gnome druid and 1 for a hobbit rogue. I think the total GP cost was about 3,500gp per suit, but they had to assist the dwarves who were making it for a month, the druid doing spell work and the rogue being the odd jobs man. This is what came of it. The players where happy and I think the effort/reward was inline with the games power level.


Leather Armor +3 [Ac 5]
Minor Fire Resistance [10 points/attack]

This armor is dark dark red almost black, made of several large pieces of a young Red Dragon hide formed into a vest, and belt. With dragon claws as clasps and fine adjustable greaves and bracers this armor is extremely well crafted. Included is a small leather cap of the same material. The armor is very resistant to fire and gains a further +5 to any attempt to destroy it via flames.


Leather Laminar +3 [Ac 6]
Minor Fire Resistance [10 points/attack]

This armor is is made from the belly scales of a young Red Dragon, the armor is light almost yellowish, with red edges to each strip of leather. The armor is made of horizontal strips mounted on finely carved pieces of darkwood enchanted to be ironwood, it extends in a skirt like fashion below waist, and has shoulder pieces that come half way down the arm. There is matching helmet with detailed ironwood figures. A set of bracers and greaves are also included.

-Mike

[serleran]

I do dragonhide AC based on age and type of dragon. It has no magical modifiers innate though it is cheaper and less time-consuming to enchant (which is a good thing.) Black dragonhide would be something like +3, +1 / 3 ages. This assumes a full suit. Less than that, such as only a breastplate, reduces the bonus by 2. This is before magic imbues it further... so the armor can get very strong.

[Rikitiki]

Does anybody here have something made from snake skin? Or has worked with snake skin or lizard skin? (They might know...)

RE: If you consider the hide is a living part of a dragon's body, the AC is so tough because it gets renewed, heals, etc, yes? And would the now-dead hide lose that?
So, maybe part of the make-it-into-armor process would have to entail the cost of laying spells into it so it doesn't dry-out, crack, flake, etc, which would lower the AC from the dragon's living original AC?

[Treebore]

I believe in earlier D&D dragon hide armor gave a +4 bonus to the base AC of the "type" of armor made. So Studded Leather would be +6 instead of +2. Full Plate (Polish Hussar) reinforced with such dragon hide, or covered in such dragon hide, however you want to look at it, would be base AC of 22. Cost? +4,000 GP. Weight was an additional 25 LBS, or in the case of leather armors, just 25 pounds.

Like Serl suggested above enchantment for things strongly related to the dragon type would be reduced. So to enchant against acid would cost half of what it otherwise would, which can add up to substantial savings in that regard.

I even know of one DM who allowed armor enchantments to AC to also be cut in half, but to enchant red dragon armor versus cold would cost 3 times as much because its inherent nature opposed such enchantments.

[Gaelethon]

In the 2nd Edition D&D monster manual, hide armor made from a dragon had armor that was 4 worse than the dragon it was made from. I liked this, because it gave greater bonuses for defeating more difficult dragons, as well as good armor choices for druids. My GM is using those rules in C&C, and they are working well so far.

[Mark Hall]

The 2nd edition rule was that Dragon hide armor was 4 points worse than the hide of the living dragon. In theory, Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Hide worked out to a -8 AC... and that's before you enchanted it.

[mgtremaine]

That's pretty tough stuff. If you normally limit enchantment to +5 or +6 it means the Dragon armor would be by far the most powerful stuff around. Full Plate Armor +6 would only be AC 14 but a Suit of Ancient Red Dragon Armor would start at Ac 28 and hit 34 with +6 enchanting. Seems a little too much for my game but as player I want it!

-Mike

[serleran]

Naturally, to use that, you would need to reduce by 10 as well, to account for the base AC... otherwise, you're doubling it.

I would probably reduce by 10 and then cut the remainder in half. Example: AC 32 dragon = (32 - 10) / 2 = 22 / 2 = 11. Base, unenchanted. That is the equivalent of plate mail +4, I believe. Or adamant plate.

[mgtremaine]

Good point.. Ac 18 base and Ac 24 in my example above. Your 1/2'ing probably makes it a bit more useable in the context of the dragons AC as a determining factor. [In my game I'm going to stick with it's a raw material that has some properties that are easy to enchant, ie resistance based on dragon type.]

-Mike

[Treebore]

Naturally, to use that, you would need to reduce by 10 as well, to account for the base AC... otherwise, you're doubling it.

I would probably reduce by 10 and then cut the remainder in half. Example: AC 32 dragon = (32 - 10) / 2 = 22 / 2 = 11. Base, unenchanted. That is the equivalent of plate mail +4, I believe. Or adamant plate.

Good formula, I think I will use it.

[RAD Colin]

Neat solution, Serl. I'll be using that. Does anyone remember the guidelines for how many suits' worth of hide you get from dragons according to size?

Colin

[Treebore]

Neat solution, Serl. I'll be using that. Does anyone remember the guidelines for how many suits' worth of hide you get from dragons according to size?

Colin

I don't remember what it was officially, I just remember thinking it was nonsense, so I went with one suit per full 30 feet of length in the main body. Every 45 feet of tail length. Tails were pretty darn long in 2E, not sure since then.

[Omote]

I too like this formula a great deal Serl. I may just use it immediately.

~O

[Mark Hall]

The MM for 2e didn't give specific numbers for dragon hide armor.

3e's rules involve making different kinds of regular armor from Dragonhide.

To quote the SRD:
"One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. "

I think "one per 30', or 45' of tail" is a good rule of thumb, though I'd question minimums and what happens when you're dealing with gnomes and halflings.

[Treebore]

The MM for 2e didn't give specific numbers for dragon hide armor.

3e's rules involve making different kinds of regular armor from Dragonhide.

To quote the SRD:
"One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. "

I think "one per 30', or 45' of tail" is a good rule of thumb, though I'd question minimums and what happens when you're dealing with gnomes and halflings.

For dwarves I went with 25 and 35 feet because they may be shorter, but they are also very stocky, for halflings/gnomes I just went with 15 feet and 25 feet.

[Gaelethon]

Part of the difference is that enchanting anything in 2nd edition was very, very difficult. The example in the DMG about creating a single sword was enough to put most players off of the idea forever. So while dragon hide could theoretically be enchanted to +5 beyond its value, I never saw that in play.

We aren't high enough level to consider any of the eldest dragons in any of the weekly C&C campaigns I currently play in, so I can't speak to the danger of slaying an ancient gold (or shadow) dragon, but I wonder idly how many challenges are left when the party can hunt down the biggest monsters in the game for parts. I will certainly pass the idea of halving the bonus on to my GM; thanks for the suggestion.

[mabon5127]

Naturally, to use that, you would need to reduce by 10 as well, to account for the base AC... otherwise, you're doubling it.

I would probably reduce by 10 and then cut the remainder in half. Example: AC 32 dragon = (32 - 10) / 2 = 22 / 2 = 11. Base, unenchanted. That is the equivalent of plate mail +4, I believe. Or adamant plate.

I like this and it came pretty close to my first inclination. I appreciate the input as I have a game this weekend and some players that want answers!!

You guys are the best!!

Morgan