Planned or Random

[Go0gleplex]

I've been thinking my way through an adventure I'm working on and reached the dungeon portion. When dealing with any dungeon that was created by intelligent creatures, I tend to work through it as a planned dungeon, that is, every room has a purpose and function to its placement. Caves of course are a totally random affair being a natural formation.

I started wondering how many folks simply toss rooms down on the graph paper without a rhyme or reason vs those of us more meticulous sorts whom seem to have to plan it all. And...which is a better way. (I know...better is totally subjective per opinion)

[AGNKim]

I do both. Sometimes a random dungeon is fun. It confuses literal thinkers, which can be delicious (I like using the word 'delicious' to describe non-food things sometimes... would do it more but it sounds decidedly homosexual... not that theres anything wrong with that...). Other times, a carefully laid out dungeon with rooms that make sense is better. Depends on your game overall and your style as CK and your players, to a certain extent.

Of course, you could always buy a pre-written adventure with multiple levels and a hundred rooms that was laid out centuries ago by an ingenious wizard of some repute: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php? ... s_id=90312

[Relaxo]

LOL Kim!

Agreed, both have their place.
(Aside: I too use "delicious" for non food things, (and don't find it homosexual at all))

Confusing players is great, I once had a dungeon make three right turns in a row... but not intersect the first corridor... (it's literally impossible) and that was about the time we had to quit for the night. The crazy hypotheses they came up with were better than the ideas I had, and I used some of their queue to wing the rest of it. A good time was had by all.

[Go0gleplex]

Oh...I like confusing players...but even then my engineering/planning gene has me laying it out in a methodically maddening manner. What gets really fun is when I start mapping things out isometrically.

Kim...it's on my list, just outta my reach right now.

[Just Jeff]

I can't it good conscience design a something without knowing the reason behind it. On rare occasion "some insane builder" can be the reason, but there are only so many Winchester Houses in the world. If a place is built over a century or three, that allows for several different styles and plans to clash, which can be fun, but even then I can't do random, so it's even more work.

[mbeacom]

First,
I usually build the dungeon in a somewhat random manner, building rooms that I think make for a cool looking map. Then I fill them with things that make sense, either for the size/shape of the room, or its location in relation to other rooms I've designed. For example, if I decide that room 24 is an old dusty kitchen that hasn't been used in years, then the small room attached to it would necessarily be a pantry, rather than say, a crapper. Who would put a crapper right next to the kitchen!?

Second,
Yes Kim! I recently picked up Dark Journey from RPGnow and have started reading it. I'm really loving it. I can't wait until I have an opportunity to run it, which, normally might be a while since we're about to start a long arc (the A series modules) but since you've written it in a such a way, I think I could insert it pretty much anywhere along the way and not screw anything up. So far, well done!

[Geleg]

Count me in the "plan 'em out as methodically as possible" camp. There are exceptions: caves, as you said, and sometimes I'll design a 'lost tombs' level whereby the level's raison d'etre is small, individually planned (and hidden) mini-complexes. This allows me to vary things up a bit. But even in the lost tombs level(s), I want some verisimilitude. I tend to have them coexist with caves (those planning the tombs look for out of the way places in the vast megadungeon and ordered their tombs constructed accordingly).

[serleran]

I like having an idea of a map, but I don't necessarily plot out what is in each room. The map is only needed when the party runs away or wants to back to something they forgot about. I pretty much "fill it in" as they explore, using whatever seems fun or interesting. Also, many rooms are empty. They have to be -- its not "old school" otherwise.

[Go0gleplex]

I don't put something in every room. However I do like to have an idea of what each room used to be used for. Then when I do populate the rooms, the re-purposing for the critters or humanoids might give them a bit more of an edge vs invaders (PCs) or present challenges of their own.

I have to admit, I even plan out the monster placement in a quasi-logical manner...paying attention to the "ecological" aspect of the dungeon as well as how the rooms lay out.

[Lurker]

For me it depends on the campaign world I'm running (well it did when I had time to DM that is). If it was my standard home-brew world which tended to be a little lower magical and more "historic" than most D&D worlds very little was random. If it was just an adventure in a generic world or in FR then it would be more random.

I have to admit, I even plan out the monster placement in a quasi-logical manner...paying attention to the "ecological" aspect of the dungeon as well as how the rooms lay out.

Me too, that is the default for even my completely random designed areas. Plus, things will react to what happens in the area. If the 3 trolls and their goblin slaves in room c18 hear fighting coming from the area of the dungeon that is controlled by a tribe of hobgoblins they will send out a scouting party. etc etc etc

[ThrorII]

I'm in the planning camp as well. I design dungeons as 'lairs', meaning they are finite (no mega dungeons), and have a rhyme and reason, and internal consistency.

It might be a goblin lair, inside of an old forgotten evil temple. I think out the goblin ecology for their lair (kings chamber/central chamber, female & snotling chamber, guard rooms, etc), superimposed over the "original" intention of the structure.

Now, whether they make sense to human players.....well who can fathom the minds of evil Kua-Toa temple builders.....mwhahaaha.

Some dungeons are pretty straight forward, espcially if I decide they were used regulary (ie: temples, keep basements, etc). Others, such as burial chambers and crypts, might be more labrynth like, with crazy traps, etc.

[Rikitiki]

Yeah, I'm a planner as well: outer gates, portcullis and such will be right outside a guardroom and such, traps in appropriate places, dining hall next to kitchens, etc. And, as has been said, what was a temple complex will have its rooms occupied and used quite differently by its current inhabitants if they're not clerics and instead a goblin raiding band. But, those goblins will have found how some traps, etc, work in that temple complex and will distribute themselves accordingly...

[Geleg]

I've always wanted to be able to bring myself to use the DMG random dungeon tables. Just can't do it. They always produce maps that look like, well, like I was just doodling on graph paper! I'm envious of you who get that free-form thing to work

[Just Jeff]

meaning they are finite (no mega dungeons)

Ah, there's the rub. I love mega-dungeons, or at least the idea of them. Cloudland is about as close to a mega-dungeon as I've ever run, and they didn't get far. A few years after that I designed a dungeon from scratch, strongly inspired by Cloudland, for a WFRP campaign, and it saw much more play. I love having what's essentially a running battle with a dozen or more sides (plus wild card elements) condensed into a relatively small space. And the well room--God have mercy on your soul; don't even think about trying to hold the well room!

Several years after that I again sat down to design another Cloudland-inspired dungeon, but by then my planner gene had kicked into full gear, and I got bogged down in logistics.

These days I can't even use the random approach for caves, having once had a player who'd done a lot of spelunking and would look at you funny if they were "wrong."

[alcyone]

I plan my dungeons, but when I look at some of the randomly generated ones online, I think I could plan a reasonable story around the layout. I am not sure the players care one way or another.

For all of my planning, it's still a dungeon, it's still full of gelatinous cubes and rust monsters and little micro environments. It gets too ridiculous really to care where the toilets are at that point. Still, I throw in stuff like waste management, heating, running water, care and maintenance of monsters, etc, if there is a way to use them in a fun way. I also like to put a little planning into making the rooms defensible; break up long corridors so an elf with a bow doesn't kill everything without entering the room, or maybe design so that strategy is facilitated, or actually used by the monsters.

One advantage of planning besides (mostly) avoiding the disbelieving looks of the players is it's easier to remember and reconstruct in your mind; I can glance at the map and know without looking at the key where stuff is because I know why it's there, and that's helpful when characters are listening for noises 3 rooms away or looking down a long hallway.

One thing I never do is figure out which way the doors swing, and I probably should. Lots of combats are half in the hall, half in the room, and around the doorway.

[Go0gleplex]

One thing I never do is figure out which way the doors swing, and I probably should. Lots of combats are half in the hall, half in the room, and around the doorway.

I have to plead guilty to doing this. Mainly for how easy is it to barricade the door or when needing to force the door open (pushing is easier than pulling). There is also the trap factor that comes into play with a few of my doors (think rat trap effect). Sliding guil...errr...doors are sort of fun to toss in as well. I have even gone as far as detailing the material of the door and thickness when it will be an issue for the PCs to deal with.

And yeah...where the crapper is also plays into lairs cause there are so many ways to mess the characters up in such places (Looking down the hole and then...HOLY FACE HUGGERS BATMAN! ) And it stands to reason that they would be located reasonably close to "residential" areas in some instances. (I once had a group infiltrate a fortified manor through one if its outer wall crappers...once they dealt with the vermin infesting the offal.)

I guess one of the main reason I plan things out is that I feel that there has to be some sort of logic to the dungeon. Rooms need to have a purpose when built or why would the money be spent on them (it's not cheap to build dungeons or keeps)? Random has its place in terms of patterns but even most of these type of places will have some sort of purpose for most of its rooms and chambers.
In the end...I guess the decades I've spent doing civil engineering work has ruined my suspension of disbelief. Which is kind of sad in its way.

[serleran]

Door motion -- Roll 1d20.

1 -- Slide, Up (like Star Trek)

2 - 5 -- Hinge, Left

6 - 9 -- Hinge, Right

10 - 11 -- Slide, Left

12 - 13 -- Slide, Right

14 -- Hinge, Double (like classic double doors)

15 -- Slide, Both (like modern automatic doors)

11 -- Hinge, Out (like a drawbridge)

12 -- Slide, Up/Down (like laundry chute)

13 - 14 -- Hinge, Up (like a trapdoor)

15 -- Multiple Hinges (like a puzzle box)

16 -- Slide, Down

17 -- Swing (like saloon doors)

18 -- Swing Flap (like a dog door)

19 - 20 -- Castle Keeper's Choice

[Go0gleplex]

Door motion -- Roll 1d20.

1 -- Slide, Up (like Star Trek)

2 - 5 -- Hinge, Left

6 - 9 -- Hinge, Right

10 - 11 -- Slide, Left

12 - 13 -- Slide, Right

14 -- Hinge, Double (like classic double doors)

15 -- Slide, Both (like modern automatic doors)

11 -- Hinge, Out (like a drawbridge)

12 -- Slide, Up/Down (like laundry chute)

13 - 14 -- Hinge, Up (like a trapdoor)

15 -- Multiple Hinges (like a puzzle box)

16 -- Slide, Down

17 -- Swing (like saloon doors)

18 -- Swing Flap (like a dog door)

19 - 20 -- Castle Keeper's Choice

Funny you should bring this up Serl. I had a mega-dungeon that I rolled for how the door would open every time someone tried opening it.

[Tadhg]

Mostly planned using "fantasy dungeon" logic. But of course, random, unusual and unexpected rooms/halls/corridors are utilized to get the best effect and to keep the PCs guessing and cautious.

[Sundog]

I enjoy creating both planned and random dungeons. Sometimes a random setup will suddenly click into place and you can see a purpose for it all, and sometimes it's turns out like some mad god's Labyrinth of Incorrigible Naughtiness. At the same time, it's quite nice planning and putting together a dungeon with a specific purpose in mind.

What I do like to consider sometimes, though, is a dungeon's history. It may well have been set up for purpose A, then been abandoned or overrun and turned to purpose B, then perhaps had some fall-in that's blocked off a major thoroughfare, then had it reopened in another direction, etc, etc. By the en of it, the poor dungeon's own mother wouldn't recognise it without a set of dental records.

[Zudrak]

I've been backreading through Gary Gygax's and Rob Kuntz's posts on DF. I liked what they said about the levels they made for their dungeons "back in the day" were primarily because "it's a game" and not to worry about reality so much. I guess it depends upon your players mostly and your own preferences, but I can see valid reasons for either approach. Game on!