Attributes above 19

[phadeout]

So how do people handle higher than 19 attributes?

I'm guessing most go:

18-19 = +3

20-21 = +4

22-23 = +5

et al.

I've also seen this approach, which is kinda neat, but I'm shying away from:

16-17 = +2

18 = +3

19 = +4

20 = +5

et al.

Though with the method above, it is nice to see that special "19" give a +4.

what to do... what to do...

[Scurvy_Platypus]

People here seem to be of the opinion that going over 19 is a Bad Idea. I don't have enough experience to say if that's just because of the style of games folks tend to run, or if it's actually breaking the system in some fundamental way. My gut feeling is that it's a problem if you're running things "by the book", but if you're already tweaking out things it's murkier.

In general it seems as though things like bonuses are kept fairly low, so allowing things to go above the "max" will create problems. Depending on what you're trying to do, there might be different ways to deal with exceptional attributes.

For example every 2 points above 18 (20, 22, 24, etc) allows a reroll on the relevant attribute every game. So a fighter with a 22 Strength for example would get a total of 2 rerolls for each game session for something related to strength. If used in combat, a reroll is worth 2 points of damage.

Another possibility is to follow the attribute progression and allow the bonus to be used for anything non-combat related. If it's combat, it's capped at 18. Sure, it's kinda an arbitrary rule, but so is capping everything at 18 or 19 to begin with. The "rationale" I suppose could be something along the lines of, "18 represents the maximum effectiveness that a person can bring to bear in a combat situation. Outside of combat where a person is better able to take a measured approach and focus, they are able to achieve more."

Another part of the problem you're probably going to run into, is the issue of balance. Given that C&C doesn't have any inherent mechanism for "balance" when looking at things like races, any kind of attribute bonus that allows a character to exceed the "max" will likely cause problems.

[Metathiax]

I use the later approach. Attributes scores over 18 are rare enough in C&C (when compared with D&D which uses the first method) to warrant a +1 per extra point progression. It also allows demi-humans to get an additional bonus for having an extraordinary score and, besides, it just sucks for a character to somehow increase an attribute from 18 to 19 and find out that it doesn't change a thing...
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

[phadeout]

Yes, I see the 18 vs 19 thing... at the same time, you can always just double the Race bonuses AND penalties and use the 3.5 approach.

I guess the reason I ask about going over 19, is because I know this WILL happen... I usually play with a group where characters get past 10th level and those characters usually end up with magic items giving them extra-ordinary stats.

I just can't decide how to handle the 18/19 thing... I may just have to stick with the C&C standard and then for every 2 points above 19, you get a +1.

[rabindranath72]

If you look at the M&T book, 19 is assigned a +3, 20-21 +4 etc.

I use this method, but allow such scores only for exceptional races, and usually just for one or two attributes.

Cheers,

Antonio

[Metathiax]

Quote:
I usually play with a group where characters get past 10th level and those characters usually end up with magic items giving them extra-ordinary stats.

Fortunately, as the CK, you do have some control over those magic items...
_________________
"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8

[Omote]

phadeout wrote:
18-19 = +3

20-21 = +4

22-23 = +5

et al

I use this method, and have a character in one of my games that has a 19 STR and another has a 19 DEX. So far, this has not been a problem at all. In my games, it's possible to advance attributes, however the pace is fairly slow. Regardless, it hasn't been a problem.

......................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

Yeah, I go by the M&T guide lines for the giant STR items for the progression beyond 18.

However I would have no problem with the ones suggested here. Because as someone else pointed out in this thread, as CK you have total control of how far past 18 they get. So I make sure I don't have problems.

[serleran]

I use the following, with the absolute max any stat can reach as a 30.

18 - 19 (statistically, the odds are the same; the only races it matters for are those who do not get a +1 to a score, like humans... but the odds of an elf having a 19 are the same as a human having an 18... or 1:216... for the same score, only the elf has more chance to have any above average score for that attribute. I don't see this as making the 19 "special.") = +3

20 - 22 = +4

23 - 25 = +5

26 - 27 = +6

28 = +7

29 = +8

30 = +9

[Maliki]

IMC I use

18-19 +3

20-21 +4

22-23 +5

etc.

I modified the races IMC so it is possible for each of the demi-human races to have a single stat that reaches 20, each race also has a single stat that has a max of 16, or two stats that have a max of 17.

Humans have a max of 18 in each stat.
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[gideon_thorne]

Scurvy_Platypus wrote:
People here seem to be of the opinion that going over 19 is a Bad Idea.

Not this person. I have an elf ranger with a 22 dex.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Grazzt]

Metathiax wrote:
...and, besides, it just sucks for a character to somehow increase an attribute from 18 to 19 and find out that it doesn't change a thing...

Hence the reason WotC said they changed the ability score progressions and the racial bonuses for 3.x (because raising a score by a single point, no matter the score, sometimes didn't give you a better bonus).

As for above 19 in C&C, I use the first method above, though Ive been thinking about going back and just using the 3.x progression and bonuses. I know of some peeps that do that, and it seems to work out fine.

[Treebore]

Grazzt wrote:
Hence the reason WotC said they changed the ability score progressions and the racial bonuses for 3.x (because raising a score by a single point, no matter the score, sometimes didn't give you a better bonus).

As for above 19 in C&C, I use the first method above, though Ive been thinking about going back and just using the 3.x progression and bonuses. I know of some peeps that do that, and it seems to work out fine.

Itdoes work out fine, as long as it is applied equally across the board to PC's, NPC's, and monsters. The biggest reason I still pull out my 3E MM's is to use the stats as a guideline for what they are in C&C.

[Grazzt]

Treebore wrote:
It does work out fine, as long as it is applied equally across the board to PC's, NPC's, and monsters. The biggest reason I still pull out my 3E MM's is to use the stats as a guideline for what they are in C&C.

Ya. I would definitely apply it across the board (wouldn't be hard since the monsters I use do have stats...based on the 3.x stuff)

Scott

Necromancer Games

[phadeout]

I think I will go with the 18-19 +3, 20-21 +4, same as M&T (page 105 I think?)

I'm also going to cap "mortals" at 24 (+6), could say 25 but not really worth the trouble... though most will never see that high of a stat anyways, but just in case. This cap is in effect even with magical help... +6 is also equal to twice the maximum penalty of -3, which is fair.

I also let players up a stat by +1 every 6 levels (starting at 6).

This way that 19 Stat IS more important than an 18...

Take a 19 Stat at 1st level, max out at 24 at level 30. Sounds reasonable to me! And if it's a physical stat.. old age is a factor.

[Treebore]

Maybe. Potions of longevity are back in C&C. Age will be a factor, eventually. Besides, I have never ran or played in a game where age became a factor unless a Ghost aged my PC 40 years to Age 64.

[Geron Raveneye]

I had this weird idea to attach another probability curve to the standard 3D6 curve C&C uses...one that starts at 18 and ends at 108. It would cover the 18D6 range and be used for every critter with exceptional attributes. 18 would be the overlap to the "minor" races, and be the lowest end. Didn't get to it yet, though...I'm not sure what kind of groups I should create from the numbers either, but the bonuses would go pretty high up.

[phadeout]

Treebore wrote:
Maybe. Potions of longevity are back in C&C. Age will be a factor, eventually. Besides, I have never ran or played in a game where age became a factor unless a Ghost aged my PC 40 years to Age 64.

I've actually played 1st Level characters that were already one age category older (and in the 2E days, you could actually roll a random Gnome that was already into the first aging category!) I can be useful to take a hit to your physical stats to have more mental ones, and makes for neat roleplaying since your 1st Level Illusionist is actually 40 years old (in human terms), while everyone else is a whipper snapper...