I was just reading the optional (unofficial) rules for mana points in the CKG (page 48-49) and one of the last sentences in the description made me think. It was:
This method of spellcasting changes the dynamic of play, but not in a significant manner.
I crunched some numbers...
A 5th level wizard regains 5 mana points per hour. Without taking his starting mana into account he would recover 120 points of mana a day. So he could cast thirty Fireballs a day (3rd level spell, 4 mana points each) and three Fireballs in a row (15 mana points max. without mods).
Did I miss something? Because I think it is significant...
Drygur - Minstrel Lord of The Dungeon Singers, Margrave of The Castles & Crusades Society
Well...firepower-wise it does seem significant. Though three rounds of that and you're out of spells for an hour per your example. This could be bad in a particularly hostile area.
I think the idea is that folks will spread their points out over various spells, equating the same number of spell slots via the vancian method, hence the no real significance. They get more spells per day as intended as long as they have components for those spells and the mana. Then again, should they get driven into negative mana, things will slow down a lot.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976." "Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed." "Certified crazy since 2009."
Traveller wrote:Spellcasters are no longer required to memorize spells based upon their spellbook. They may cast any spell, provided they are of sufficient level to cast the spell, using the guidelines given below.
Characters have mana equal to their intelligence score (if a Wizard or Illusionist) or wisdom score (if a Cleric or Druid) plus their level. So a 10th-level Wizard with 16 INT would have 26 mana. An 8th-level Cleric with 12 WIS would have 20 mana.
Each spell costs mana equivalent to its level (e.g. a 4th-level spell costs 4 mana).
Characters are limited in the spells they can cast as follows: the spells per day tables in the Players Handbook are now spell slot tables, meaning the caster can cast no more spells of a specific mana cost per day than the number of available slots. Therefore a third-level wizard could cast four zero-mana spells, three one-mana spells, and one two-mana spell. Once he reaches fourth level, he can cast an additional two-mana spell as the number of slots available for his two-mana spells has increased.
Characters do not suffer ill effects if they run out of mana. They simply can't cast any additional spells until they've rested for a night.
Magic items that duplicate spell effects do not cost mana to cast, as the mana is stored within the runes inscribed on the item. Scrolls do not cost mana to cast, but the writings disappear upon casting.
I agree that it would not be very wise to spend all mana points in one go for maximum firepower. Nevertheless I know a lot of players who are a bit trigger-happy and would spend even the remaining mana points for magic missiles
I also agree that things would get slowed down a lot if the spellcaster goes into negative mana points.
I like the idea of spellcasters having more spells per day. I think I will try to construct a system myself...
@Traveller:
The 3rd level wizard from your example could only spend 5 mana points (4x0 + 3x1 + 1x2) per day. The mana points would only become interesting in the higher levels, around 7th level. Is the intention to cap the number of spells per day of higher level spellcasters?
Drygur - Minstrel Lord of The Dungeon Singers, Margrave of The Castles & Crusades Society
It's sort of an all or nothing deal. If you want the player to have full flexibility in what they can cast per day limited by mana, then you have to deal with the abuse issue. Otherwise it's lock them into the vancian methodology. The nearest thing to middle ground seems to be the 3e sorceror, in that they can cast any spell they know but only x number of times per spell slots.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976." "Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed." "Certified crazy since 2009."
I've used my own spell point system for a long time in both AD&D and C&C, but now that I have the CKG I'm going to adopt this one. If you're worried about the mana-acquisition and how it skews the caster's effectiveness over time, one way to put a check on it is to require that the wizard be actively resting to recover lost mana. If the recovery rate is slowed or stops if the wizard isn't sleeping or meditating (or the cleric isn't praying) then that might make the system feel a bit closer in scale to the straight-up memorization/slot system.
Requiring rest or what is certainly and option, but I think that sort of counters what the recovery rules are trying to accomplish which is to limit the down time of the caster and the party having to rest constantly to heal and recover spells.
Another thing that could be done is to increase the recovery time/ reduce the amount of mana recovered.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976." "Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed." "Certified crazy since 2009."
Go0gleplex wrote:Requiring rest or what is certainly and option, but I think that sort of counters what the recovery rules are trying to accomplish which is to limit the down time of the caster and the party having to rest constantly to heal and recover spells.
That's true. I wouldn't implement a rest system myself either, for that reason. Mostly it would probably work for Drygur if he felt that the rate of mana acquisiton was way out of proportion to the expected casting abilities of wizards and clerics, and he wanted to cap that.
Another way would be to slow the rate of spellpoint recovery (1 or 2 points per hour), maybe.
Personally, my solution is: plan accordingly and anticipate the wizard being fully loaded at any given moment. As written, I think the spell point mechanic nicely removes that whole "5 minutes of adventure to one day or rest" phenomenon.
Camazotz wrote:Personally, my solution is: plan accordingly and anticipate the wizard being fully loaded at any given moment. As written, I think the spell point mechanic nicely removes that whole "5 minutes of adventure to one day or rest" phenomenon.
Agreed.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976." "Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed." "Certified crazy since 2009."
@Drygur: The cap is intentional. The biggest problem with mana point systems is that they make casters very powerful at low levels. One of the earliest systems is found in the Dragon Tree Spell Book. The rule as given in that book would conceivably allow a 1st-level Wizard to cast wish. That is severely imbalanced.
C&C's mana point rules, based on this discussion has the same problem. I don't have the CKG so I don't have access to the mana point article, but while C&C has a limit in regards to the number of spells in a spellbook, that limit only applies to total spells, not spell levels. So yet again, a 1st-level caster could put wish into his spellbook, which I find to be imbalanced compared to the concept of the weak wizard steadily increasing in power as he gains experience.
Limiting by spell level prevents such abuse while still allowing for the flexibility that mana point systems have.
Traveller wrote:@Drygur: The cap is intentional. The biggest problem with mana point systems is that they make casters very powerful at low levels. One of the earliest systems is found in the Dragon Tree Spell Book. The rule as given in that book would conceivably allow a 1st-level Wizard to cast wish. That is severely imbalanced.
C&C's mana point rules, based on this discussion has the same problem. I don't have the CKG so I don't have access to the mana point article, but while C&C has a limit in regards to the number of spells in a spellbook, that limit only applies to total spells, not spell levels. So yet again, a 1st-level caster could put wish into his spellbook, which I find to be imbalanced compared to the concept of the weak wizard steadily increasing in power as he gains experience.
Limiting by spell level prevents such abuse while still allowing for the flexibility that mana point systems have.
Isn't the simple assumption that such a system does not allow a caster to cast spells above a level that would be allowed under a standard system? I don't have the CKG handy either, but limited experience with other "mana" or "spell point" systems, makes me want to recall that such systems did not allow a caster to utilize spells above the limit imposed under the standard system. A 5th level Wizard, for example, with mana or spell points, was still limited to casting 3rd level spells or lower.
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities
for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.” -- E. G. G.
-------------------------------------------------- Castles & Crusades Society Member
The CKG rule states that a caster may attempt to learn and cast spells up to 1/2 their level no problem. For spells over 1/2 their level they must make a INT check with the CL being the level of the spell in question. If they blow it, they have to wait a level before they can try again, or, in the case of casting said higher spell, failure results in double mana point cost.
That would seem that there is some sort of spell cap in place to keep things from getting to ridiculous at lower levels. One way of dealing with this to keep spells like wish from being tossed about at mid-levels would be to use the level needed under the vancian system as the CL for the INT check on the spell. I haven't looked at this closely, but off the cuff it seems doable.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976." "Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed." "Certified crazy since 2009."
My system is partly based on The Dragon Tree Spell Book. In that book, the mana point system had no checks or balances to limit the capability of casters using wish at 1st level. The only other example of a mana point system I had was RuneQuest, which to the best of my knowledge didn't have limits either (and I'm not about to dig out my copy to check).
This system of mine was developed about three years prior to the CKG being released, when Castles & Crusades didn't have a mana system. Thus I had to find a way to address what I saw as flaws in the mana point system. That's when I hit upon the idea of spell slots as a balancing mechanism.
Just to clarify something I said to Drygur, the cap applies regardless of level.
Thank you all for your thoughts on this topic. In the meantime I came up with a different idea for a spell system which I would like to share with you.
I tried to upload it here, as a PDF-file, but was denied. Unfortunately Fiffergrund did't answer me on this yet. Are uploads of PDFs not wanted?
Drygur - Minstrel Lord of The Dungeon Singers, Margrave of The Castles & Crusades Society
I don't know how much space the server has available, so rather than be the guy who breaks the Internet by posting that one thing, I simply throw stuff on MediaFire when I need to make it publicly accessible. Were I you, I'd simply sign up for a Dropbox or MediaFire account and put your file there.
