StarSIEGE: Event Horizon Relaunch

[cheeplives]

Cross-posted from the SIEGE Engine forums

Okay, so it looks like there may be a re-launch of StarSIEGE... so I'm looking for any issues people found in the game that they'd like to see addressed. This will be a 2nd Edition, not a reprinting. I plan to go in and re-tweak the system and do some streamlining as well as some realigning to hew a bit closer to C&C. Attributes will not change, but some more "class-like" builds will be included for people who like that stuff. I also hope to better integrate the Trapping Generation system so it can be translated to C&C more easily. So, beyond Errata and layout, what issues exist in the game that need to be addressed?

If relaunched, I believe we will be working with the following specs for the first roll-out:
180 page StarSIEGE: Event Horizon Rulebook (hardback, I believe)
64 page Victory 2442 setting book (soft-cover)
GM Screen

[Omote]

Wow! Good news Cheep.

~O

[cuchulainkevin]

I'd say conform to the six attributes of the C&C system instead of alternate attributes. Ultimately, I could pick up any system if I want to take the time to learn a new system, If I pick up a siege system game, I'd like it to ge as similar to C&C as possible.

Overall, I like the toolbox approach, but I would have liked more examples of builds like the aliens/androids. For example, examples of some builds for genetically modified humans/transhumans. Not like the comic superhero type, but more like the Dune/Star Wars/Lensman type.

its been awhile since I cracked open the boxset, but refresh my memory anyone- but I thought the equipment rules were too openended. I'd like subsections like How to create mechs, How to create weapons, How to create gadgets, with two or three specific examples of each.

the optional rules for the hit points were ok, but I would expand the number of options: gritty (as presented), heroic ( the optional rules in SS), super herioc ( maybe Con+ attribute bonus + some sort of level bonus), etc.

Robert Doyle has done some great work with his "Engineering" series for C&C, I think it'd be cool to imcorporate some of that design into the Star Siege book. Applying that format to an alien creature template, a mech template, tech template, ect. could produce a ton of options in a relatively low page count.


examples of some builds for genetically modified humans/transhumans. Not like the comic superhero type, but more like the Dune/Star Wars/Lensman type.

[ssfsx17]

Options for random damage and healing, as opposed to flat numbers - mostly just putting a point cost on dice from sizes d2 to d20.

When vehicles and other multi-component trappings are involved: options for choosing which part gets hit, as well as point costs for any advantages that would give the attacker finer control over that

[Lord Dynel]

Sounds good, hoss!

[Tadhg]

Two thumbs up for me!!

[slimykuotoan]

I'd say conform to the six attributes of the C&C system instead of alternate attributes.

Ditto

[slimykuotoan]

Options for random damage and healing, as opposed to flat numbers...

And ditto

[slimykuotoan]

P.S. I'm gonna buy it anyway.

[cheeplives]

Options for random damage and healing, as opposed to flat numbers - mostly just putting a point cost on dice from sizes d2 to d20.

These rules exist in the current document (well, I guess the random healing isn't there, but could be extrapolated). The "How Many Hit Points Do I Have?" text box in Field Manual page 17.

When vehicles and other multi-component trappings are involved: options for choosing which part gets hit, as well as point costs for any advantages that would give the attacker finer control over that

These rules exist as well (except for the targetting thing)... see page 25 of the operations manual... each subsystem/cargo hold adds a Wound Box to the damage track that you associate with that subsystem/cargo. If that box is ever checked, then it is non-functional.

If you wanted to aim at something in particular.. there are also rules for targeting objects on page 13 of the ops manual.

As far as the attributes issue... I'm not going to change them to match C&C... attributes in SSEH work differently than in C&C, so I don't see the reason to mirror the attributes. I may put in a sidebar on switching them out.. I just don't know why I'd do it. Attributes in C&C serve two purposes: giving a base bonus and standing in for broad skill groupings. Those concepts have been divorced in SSEH, leaving Attributes to just serve as a baseline bonus... as such, I want a bigger variety of possible bonuses with fewer opportunities for "dump stats". Mechanically, I don't see how the game benefits from only 1 social attribute, 3 physical attributes, and 2 mental ones.

[koralas]

As far as the attributes issue... I'm not going to change them to match C&C... attributes in SSEH work differently than in C&C, so I don't see the reason to mirror the attributes. I may put in a sidebar on switching them out.. I just don't know why I'd do it. Attributes in C&C serve two purposes: giving a base bonus and standing in for broad skill groupings. Those concepts have been divorced in SSEH, leaving Attributes to just serve as a baseline bonus... as such, I want a bigger variety of possible bonuses with fewer opportunities for "dump stats". Mechanically, I don't see how the game benefits from only 1 social attribute, 3 physical attributes, and 2 mental ones.

I have been working on a bridge between the systems, well more to run a fantasy game using most of the SS rules set, but allowing for a bridge between the two. Here is an excerpt from what I have written regarding the attribute comparison between the two...

Statistics
Characters in the game are represented by a set of numerical statistics that determine how effective the character is at different physical and mental challenges.

Attributes
Attributes are the first set of statistics we will cover. These are the innate abilities of the character, governing things such as their physical strength, agility, intelligence, and so on. These attributes are the raw basics of a character, each will have a number of skills and abilities as later defined by the Skill Bundles and Specialties they select.

Following from the SFM, the characters have the following six attributes: Physique, Reflexes, Knowledge, Savvy, Confidence, and Empathy. However, as we are tying this system to the Castle & Crusades system as well, the “core” abilities of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma may often need to be compared. Below, in the description of each attribute, it will relate how to tie back to these abilities.

Attributes will normally range from -3 to +3. This is not a hard cap on the range, exceptional individuals, or through some sort of enhancement or drawback, an character may have a higher or lower score. SFM does not mention recording the actual number used to determine the Attribute score, though for the sake of comparison or compatibility with C&C, I would recommend keeping record of the Attribute Rating.

Physique
This attribute covers the characters physical abilities. Primarily regarding strength, health, and endurance. A character will gain an additional number of wound boxes on the Wounds Track, equal to the Physique score. When determining encumbrance, the character can carry an item whose Size is equal to 5 plus their Physique score, to a maximum of the size of the character. Finally the Physique score is added to all melee combat rolls.

When comparing to C&C, Physique is equivalent to Strength and Constitution. If you wish to differentiate between the two, I would recommend allowing the rating to be modified by subtracting one or two points from one attribute and adding that to the other. So if the Physique rating was 14, you could have a Strength of 16 and a Con of 12, or vice-verse.

Reflexes
Reflexes relate to the agility and reaction time of a character. It also governs the manual dexterity of the character and hand-eye coordination. Reflexes will add to a characters defense rating, though a negative attribute will not reduce the rating. Reflexes are also used to all Ranged combat rolls.

Reflexes are directly linked to Dexterity in C&C.

Knowledge
This attribute covers what the character understands of the world around them, general knowledge, education, and memory retention. This can be through formal education, or learning through life-experiences.

Knowledge is akin to the Intelligence score in C&C. However, it is not a perfect analogy, and the SE/CK could rule that Intelligence would be equal to the average of Savvy and Knowledge.

Savvy
Where Knowledge covers what a character knows, Savvy measure how well the character can use that Knowledge. Reasoning, logic, and ability to learn all fall under the aspect of Savvy.

When talking about conversion to C&C Savvy is similar to Wisdom. See the notes on Knowledge above, as it can possibly affect the Intelligence score as well. If using this mix of Knowledge and Savvy for Intelligence, I would also consider averaging Savvy and Empathy to create the Wisdom score.

Confidence
This measures a characters self-worth, force of will, ego, and will affect how others view the character. Confidence is used most often when the character tries to sway others to their line of thinking, charm, or intimidate another being. It is also used when trying to resist such actions when the character is their target. The Confidence score is added to the characters Stress Track, though a negative Confidence attribute will not subtract from the normal track. This ability is also used when defending against attacks directed at the mind, such as from Psionics.

In C&C, Charisma is most directly related to Confidence. Again the analogy is not perfect, and whether or not you choose to average Kn and Sv for Intelligence, and Sv and Em for Wisdom, you should average Confidence and Empathy to determine the effective Charisma of the character.

Empathy
The Empathy attribute measures how well they get along with others and understand their own psyche. This ability can aid in determining the motivations of others through scrutinizing their emotions and body language. It also relates to their general likeability. Often it is used when trying to understand the actions or even hidden desires/motivations of other beings. It is also the base attribute for Psionic Powers, though the details of these are not provided and will be released in a future supplement. In SFM this attribute also affects the Cyber Score.

Generating Attributes
There are many methods that players and game masters have used over the years to determine the starting attributes of characters. Below, three methods are outlined. As I noted above, I recommend recording the Rating (the number actually rolled) as well as the Attribute itself. This aids in conversion to C&C if/when needed.

First, the method as shown in the SFM on page 5, simply roll a d20 to determine the Rating. This generates a number between 1 and 20 and is completely random.

Second, rolling 3d6 and totaling them up to determine the ability rating. This yields a bell-curve and generates a bit more natural character. The character will tend more towards the average, with less of a chance of getting an exceptionally low or high score.

Finally, there is the point-buy system. In this system all characters have 50+3d10 points with which to buy their ability ratings. If all three dice come up 9 or 10, the character may get an additional 5 points to spend at the discretion of the SE.
Regardless of what system is used, if the total rating of all of the characters attributes is less than 55, the SE should consider granting additional points to be assigned, or allow a new set of attributes be generated.

Once you have the ability score rating, consult the following chart to determine the actual attribute. First find the method used to generate ability ratings, d20 or some other method, then read the Attribute score from the last column.

Code: Select all

d20     3d6     Attribute
 1       3          -3
2–3     4–5        -2
4–7     6–8        -1
8–13    9–12        0
14–17   13–15      +1
18–19   16–17      +2
20      18         +3

[Troll Lord]

Peter Bradley came up with a good name for this Relaunch, calling it Reloaded or something or the other!

Steve

[Sir Ironside]

Peter Bradley came up with a good name for this Relaunch, calling it Reloaded or something or the other.

This sounds like a Western type of relaunch. Wonder if there is a more spacey type word one could use.

Should think on it.

Ha! What about Relaunch!

[gideon_thorne]

Peter Bradley came up with a good name for this Relaunch, calling it Reloaded or something or the other.

This sounds like a Western type of relaunch. Wonder if there is a more spacey type word one could use.

Should think on it.

Ha! What about Relaunch!

*snorts* Steve has a memory like a sive.

My suggestion was Star Siege: Revolutions

It goes with this cover concept I've been slowly mucking about with.

[Troll Lord]

Peter Bradley came up with a good name for this Relaunch, calling it Reloaded or something or the other.

This sounds like a Western type of relaunch. Wonder if there is a more spacey type word one could use.

Should think on it.

Ha! What about Relaunch!

That is pretty good!!!

My bad though, peter just told me I have a memory of a something or the other.

It was Star Siege Revolutions!

haha
Steve

[Omote]

Oh Noes! Thesaurus the hell out of Revolutions. Reminds me of a shitty movie with the same name that killed a franchise.

[gideon_thorne]

Oh Noes! Thesaurus the hell out of Revolutions. Reminds me of a shitty movie with the same name that killed a franchise.

*snorts* I happened to like all those movies. Course, I'm not that fussy. But in any event, the above was just an idea for a possible campaign setting theme.

[cheeplives]

What about StarSIEGE: Escape Velocity or StarSIEGE: Singularity.

Also, I'm posting some of the changes and revisions as I get to them in the SIEGE Engine Game Threads.

Also, Peter, PM me an email address that I can use to contact you so we can start discussing art for the game.

[Piperdog]

Maybe this comes across as lackluster, but I am all for the same name. StarSiege: Event Horizon is a good name, just call it 2nd Edition. While I personally dig The StarSiege: Escape Velocity name, it would, at least to me, imply a different game altogether, or a setting or adventure, or at least confuse me if I didn't know the game history and situation. I wouldn't muddle with the brand name recognition, even if it isn't what TLG hoped it would be at this point. In my humble opinion, keep the name exactly as is, and throw 2nd Edition on it. Or Expanded Edition or Collector's Edition or whatever Edition sounds cool. Just my 2 cents.

[Piperdog]

Also, Peter, PM me an email address that I can use to contact you so we can start discussing art for the game.

Some of the art I would like to see is a picture of each race. Speaking of which, I hope there is a "Beastiary" type chapter in the setting materials. While the original SSEH is an awesome toolkit, I never had the time to do what I set out to do with it. Combine my Zero Time factor in with my Extreme Laziness factor, and there you have it. lol. It would be nice to simply see a lot of ready-made stuff this time around, from ships/ship templates with artistic renderings, races, creatures, etc. And lots and lots of art. Plus some art.