The Shadow and the Hill Giant...

[TheMetal1]

THE SHADOW...

Ok, so I'm in the midst of a homebrew adventure and one of the monsters is a Shadow. There is an issue with the stat block vs. the entry write in regards to damage. The stat block says "Incorporeal Touch (1d4)" and entery under Strength Drain is "A creature so touched suffers the loss of 1 point of
strength..." So does this mean the Shadow gets 1d4 attacks per round and each successful attack would cause 1 STR Damage or is it one attack that does 1d4 STR damage?

AND THE HILL GIANT...

So again, in the adventure - a Dwarf is attempted to be grappled by a Hill Giant. The Grapple rules state that the standard AC for all Grapplers is 15. Size matters here so, because the Dwarf is 2 sizes smaller than the Hill giant it gets a +4 to its AC. Bringing it up to a 19. I get all that, but the issue surrounds the Dwarf Racial Ability "Defensive Expertise (Giants/Ogres)" When fighting these creatures, they get a +4 to their AC. My question is..."Does 'Defensive Expertise' (Giants/Ogres)' stack with the grapple AC and modifiers? If so that makes the Dwarf have an effective AC against the Giant of 23.

Thoughts?

[Go0gleplex]

THE SHADOW...

Ok, so I'm in the midst of a homebrew adventure and one of the monsters is a Shadow. There is an issue with the stat block vs. the entry write in regards to damage. The stat block says "Incorporeal Touch (1d4)" and entery under Strength Drain is "A creature so touched suffers the loss of 1 point of
strength..." So does this mean the Shadow gets 1d4 attacks per round and each successful attack would cause 1 STR Damage or is it one attack that does 1d4 STR damage?

AND THE HILL GIANT...

So again, in the adventure - a Dwarf is attempted to be grappled by a Hill Giant. The Grapple rules state that the standard AC for all Grapplers is 15. Size matters here so, because the Dwarf is 2 sizes smaller than the Hill giant it gets a +4 to its AC. Bringing it up to a 19. I get all that, but the issue surrounds the Dwarf Racial Ability "Defensive Expertise (Giants/Ogres)" When fighting these creatures, they get a +4 to their AC. My question is..."Does 'Defensive Expertise' (Giants/Ogres)' stack with the grapple AC and modifiers? If so that makes the Dwarf have an effective AC against the Giant of 23.

Thoughts?

The shadow gets one attack that does 1d4 damage plus the STR damage.

I don't use the grapple rules or what so can't answer you on that one.

[Arduin]

When fighting these creatures, they get a +4 to their AC. My question is..."Does 'Defensive Expertise' (Giants/Ogres)' stack with the grapple AC and modifiers? If so that makes the Dwarf have an effective AC against the Giant of 23.

Thoughts?

It is an unqualified rule. In any physical combat against giants, they get the AC bonus.

[mgtremaine]

The stat block says "Incorporeal Touch (1d4)"

Remember this means it only needs to touch not hit. See the touch rules on Armor Class. It makes this class of beast terrifying.

-Mike

[Lord Dynel]

THE SHADOW...

Ok, so I'm in the midst of a homebrew adventure and one of the monsters is a Shadow. There is an issue with the stat block vs. the entry write in regards to damage. The stat block says "Incorporeal Touch (1d4)" and entery under Strength Drain is "A creature so touched suffers the loss of 1 point of
strength..." So does this mean the Shadow gets 1d4 attacks per round and each successful attack would cause 1 STR Damage or is it one attack that does 1d4 STR damage?

I would say the bolded. The "Strength Drain" section specifically states that it does 1 point of STR damage. and the "1d4" is listed in the "Attacks" section, so I think this interpreptation is correct.

AND THE HILL GIANT...

So again, in the adventure - a Dwarf is attempted to be grappled by a Hill Giant. The Grapple rules state that the standard AC for all Grapplers is 15. Size matters here so, because the Dwarf is 2 sizes smaller than the Hill giant it gets a +4 to its AC. Bringing it up to a 19. I get all that, but the issue surrounds the Dwarf Racial Ability "Defensive Expertise (Giants/Ogres)" When fighting these creatures, they get a +4 to their AC. My question is..."Does 'Defensive Expertise' (Giants/Ogres)' stack with the grapple AC and modifiers? If so that makes the Dwarf have an effective AC against the Giant of 23.

I'd say that's correct.

Thoughts?

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

[Go0gleplex]

It is one attack/ touch. The die range in parenthisis is always damage. Multiple attacks would be noted as 5-12 without the parenthisis as commonly found for creatures such as the Hydra. A touch is still a hit, though it ignores any armor bonus and applies only magical and DEX bonuses typically.

[Lord Dynel]

It is one attack/ touch. The die range in parenthisis is always damage. Multiple attacks would be noted as 5-12 without the parenthisis as commonly found for creatures such as the Hydra. A touch is still a hit, though it ignores any armor bonus and applies only magical and DEX bonuses typically.

Yeah, I'd say that's right. The touch does 1d4 points of damage, and also drains 1 point of strength per attack. I don't know where my brain was on that one.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I don't know where my brain was on that one.

Apparently, it was in your cat's mouth. Please don't go into feline proctology.

[TheMetal1]

Thank you all for the replies. Looks like we all have a general consensus on the Hill Giant issue. The Dwarf AC bonus for Defensive Expertise stacks. Cool.

But as for the Shadow...

There is some disagreement on this.

For the record, during the game, I just ruled that it was One Incorpreal Attack doing 1-4 Strength Damage.

More or less I based it on this from page 4 of M&T (4th Crusade):

"The number of attacks is listed first. If there is no number, then only one attack is assumed. The form of the attack is lester next. Damage from each form of attack is included in the adjacent parentheses."

So naturally, I wandered over to the 3.5 SRD and looked at the Shadow entry there. Looks like the creature has 1 attack that hits with a +3 for 1d6 Strength Damage. The Pathfinder SRD states the same thing. Both are fairly close to C&C with a +3 to hit (based on 3 HD) and further evidence that the 1 attack for 1d4 Strength Damage might be correct.

BUT...the problem remains with text in M&T saying only 1 Strength Damage. I decided to pull out my Swords & Wizardry: White Box (well not really pulled it out all, I could have, but I got the PDF as well as the box set, so I just used the PDF search feature ) and looked at the entry for Shadow there. This is what it says:

Their chill touch drains one point of strength with a successful hit, and if a victim is brought to a strength of 0, he becomes a shadow. Strength points return after 90 minutes.

I'm guessing here, but it appears the Trolls combined elements from 3.X and OD&D (Stats & Entry respectively).... but failed to merge the two properly.
So I think this entry needs a Troll to weigh in on this. So I say to you Trolls! Which is it - the 1d4 Damage or 1 Strength Damage - Is it 3.X or OD&D!

(oh yeah and no avoiding the question by saying I'm the Castle Keeper and this is C&C and forget the rules and do what you want - I did that already, my ruling was made, it stands. Really, I just thing that either the Stat Block or Entry needs to be corrected for the next printing and put into the current M&T errata to keep making an awesome game - better! (if that were possible).

Remember this means it only needs to touch not hit. See the touch rules on Armor Class. It makes this class of beast terrifying.

This makes a huge difference, I some how missed this during the adventure about Touch Attacks. Ughh. On someone with only 10 AC a Shadow with hit with a 7 on a d20. So yes, indeed, quite terrifying!

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

That was darn funny, got a good laugh from that this morning so thank you! And in response I link this to you from Jeff's Game Blog:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRSRzS98 ... r_embedded

[Lord Dynel]

Let me first say that in the end, you do it however you want to, boss. Your game, your rules.

That said...

But as for the Shadow...

There is some disagreement on this.

For the record, during the game, I just ruled that it was One Incorpreal Attack doing 1-4 Strength Damage.

More or less I based it on this from page 4 of M&T (4th Crusade):

"The number of attacks is listed first. If there is no number, then only one attack is assumed. The form of the attack is lester next. Damage from each form of attack is included in the adjacent parentheses."

Let's look at that for a second. I think you've got the correct interpretation here: number of attacks listed first, then type of attack, then the damage from that attack. So, in the case of the shadow, I think it was intended as: (1 attack) Incorporeal Touch (1d4...points of damage). The reason I suspect this is correct, that the attack deals 1d4 points of hit point damage (I'll get to the Str drain in a second) is because the Attack listing follows just like every other attack listing in the book, just like you quoted. The 1d4 should be interpreted as hit point damage, not strength damage.

The strength drain is a special attack, and is listed so in the "Special" part of the stat block. This is an additional quality that's on top of its other abilities. My justification for that is made by looking at the other incorporeal undead in the book - allips, ghosts, spectres, and wraiths. Pay special attention to allips and ghosts.

Let's look at spectres and wraiths first. Their stats appear exactly as shadows do; an attack, with a damage after in parenthesis. But they also have a draining special ability - energy drain. The descriptions of the abilities has the specific amount of level drain in each one (one level for wraiths, and two levels for spectre). These are specific amounts, just like the shadow's strength drain (in which it drains one point per hit). All three undead have a damage listing after the attack, and I'm fairly certain that these damages are hit point damage, and not to be confused with the draining abilities.

Back to the allip and ghost. I think that if the damage listed behind the shadow's attack (in the stat block) was meant to be the amount of strength drained, the stat block would look something like the block that the allip has: "Touch (ability drain)." The description goes on to say that the allip drains 1d4 points of wisdom from an opponent. Here, damage is not listed in the attack line. I think that's on purpose because the creature doesn't do hit point damage...it simple says "ability drain." The ghost mirrors this by just saying "slam," in which case causes aging and death.

I was confused on this too, Metal1, but I think looking at the other incorporeal creatures puts it in perspective...at least for me it does. I think the 1d4 is supposed to be actual damage from the touch - a cold, bone-chilling, freezing touch. The additional effect from this touch, other than the freezing pain, would be the draining of 1 point of strength.

I checked out other resources, too, and nothing seemed to jive exactly. They I smacked my head in "duh" moment when it occurred to me to check the other incorporeal undead in the book. It was then when I started piecing it together and came to the conclusion I did.

Remember this means it only needs to touch not hit. See the touch rules on Armor Class. It makes this class of beast terrifying.

This makes a huge difference, I some how missed this during the adventure about Touch Attacks. Ughh. On someone with only 10 AC a Shadow with hit with a 7 on a d20. So yes, indeed, quite terrifying!

Agreed. Touch attacks can be quite painful in C&C.

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

That was darn funny, got a good laugh from that this morning so thank you! And in response I link this to you from Jeff's Game Blog:

http://jrients.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRSRzS98 ... r_embedded

Hehe...glad you liked my shot at humor! And thanks for the link...pretty funny, sir!

[TheMetal1]

So, in the case of the shadow, I think it was intended as: (1 attack) Incorporeal Touch (1d4...points of damage).

I've been pondering this one as well. Looking across the M&T at the entries, the and going with the Attack statment from page 4 "Damage from each form of attack is included in the adjacent parentheses." It looks like that damage always refers to Hit Points. Unless, like the Allip entry you had mentioned, it has something other than a number after the attack. The Rust Monster is one example (ATTACKS: Antennae Touch (Rust) ), the Roper another (ATTACKS: 6 Strands (see below), Bite (5d4)).

Looking specifically at undead, here is the lay out: (minus Skeles & Zombies)

Shadow - Attacks: Incorporeal Touch (1d4) Strength Damage: 1 point of STR

Wraith - Attacks: Incorporeal Touch (1d6) Energy Drain: 1 Level

Spectre - Attacks: Incorporeal Touch (1d8) Energy Drain: 2 Levels

Wight - Attacks: Slam (1d6) Energy Drain: 1 Level

Allip - Attacks: Touch (ability drain) Wisdom Drain: 1d4 points

Banshee - Attacks: Chilling Touch (1d8) Keening Wail (Save or die)

Bodak -Attacks: Slam(2d4), or Weapon(By Weapon); Death Gaze (Save or die)

Ghast - Attacks: 2 Claw (1d4), Bite (1d8) Paralysis: 1d4+1 turns

Ghost - Attacks: Slam Touch of Death (Aging)

Ghoul - Attacks: 2 Claw (1d3), Bite (1d6) Paralysis: 1d4-turns

Lich - Attacks: Touch (1d10); Paralysis: 1d6 Cold Damage & Save vs. STR or be permenatly immovilized.

Mummy - Attacks: Slam (1d12) Mummy Rot

Vampire - Attacks: Slam(1d6); Save vs. Str - 1d4 Damage and Engery Drain (2 levels)


Mind you this doesn't include all their special attacks, just the stat block stuff and the special corresponding to it.

The Spectre entry looks most similiar to the shadow. Though the shadow does 1d4 and is 1 point STR drain, while the Spectre is 1d8 and is 2 Levels.

Anyway after reviewing the call on Big RPG Monitor and some great discussion, it appears that the trolls don't, I say again, don't need to change the entry in the stat block or in the write up.

The additional 1d4 hits of damage and 1 STR drain will certainly wittle down a character. THough not as much as the 1d4 STR Drain, on teh flip side, the STR returns rather quickly, the hit points - not so much.

So if I am not clear - I was wrong!

Darn good discussion though and I appreciate everyone's input. Made me dig deep!

Though now that i have gone down the rabbit hole - I have two questions:

1. What is the deal with the Ghost's Attack entry? It has Slam, but nothing after it

2. The Lich, does 1d10 touch damage followed by 1d6 cold damage and 2 levels of Energy Drain. I assume that just the pummeling of the lich does 1d10, followed by an additional 1d6 cold damage from the touch and a possibilty of level drain?

[Lord Dynel]

Though now that i have gone down the rabbit hole - I have two questions:

1. What is the deal with the Ghost's Attack entry? It has Slam, but nothing after it

2. The Lich, does 1d10 touch damage followed by 1d6 cold damage and 2 levels of Energy Drain. I assume that just the pummeling of the lich does 1d10, followed by an additional 1d6 cold damage from the touch and a possibilty of level drain?

1. Since the slam doesn't do damage, there is no damage listed. Instead, it ages the characters as described in the ghost's description. At least that's my take on it.

2. That's how I'd rule it. I don't have my M&T in front of me at the moment, so I can't say with certainity but by the way you describe it, that sounds right. Would it be two levels of drain, or one? The first time you mention it, you said two, and the second doesn't mention two. But yeah, otherwise that sounds right.

[TheMetal1]

Would it be two levels of drain, or one? The first time you mention it, you said two, and the second doesn't mention two

Sorry, shouldn't have been level drain - to many undead powers going around in my head!

Here is the lich:

ATTACKS: Touch (1d10)

SPECIAL: Fear Aura, Spells, Undead,Paralyzing Touch, Rejuvenation

Paralyzing Touch: When a lich touches a creature’s living flesh, a sudden
shock of numbing cold radiates through the victim. The victim must make a
successful strength save or be immobilized. The victim suffers 1d6 hit points
of cold damage regardless of the saving throw’s outcome. This paralysis is
permanent unless magically countered or dispelled.

Though, really, I just don't see the Lich ever moving to do a touch attack when it has the ability of a 18th Level Wizard (and a small chance that they are also like 12th Level Cleric)! That being said, a lich has 18 HD, so that is a Big +18 "to hit" isn't out of the question.

Any one out there fight a lich in C&C - if so how'd it go?

[Willy Rat]

Stepping away from the Shadow for a moment and getting back to the Giants.

Our pals like to toss rocks over great distances, hazarding the life and limb of our poor misbegotten PCs. Hill-types can hurl them a not-to-shabby 330 feet, while the Storm giant can toss an impressive 780!

My questions are:

1. Since these are the 'maximum' ranges that rocks can be thrown, are there any deductions 'to hit' for the Medium and Long Range bands? If so, how are they calculated?

2. Can these behemoths toss boulders EVERY round? "You see a flurry of bovine-sized rocks is heading your way from 200 paces off!" On rocky ground a couple of giants would make a nice howitzer battery.

3. Giants are creatures of significant hit dice, I am also assuming that they add that number to their 'to hit' roll as well. Thus they become almost Snipers with those boulders! A Storm Giant will be adding +17 to his roll and even the 'meagre' Hill Giant gets to add +9. Impressive.

Your thoughts?

[Lord Dynel]

Stepping away from the Shadow for a moment and getting back to the Giants.

Our pals like to toss rocks over great distances, hazarding the life and limb of our poor misbegotten PCs. Hill-types can hurl them a not-to-shabby 330 feet, while the Storm giant can toss an impressive 780!

My questions are:

1. Since these are the 'maximum' ranges that rocks can be thrown, are there any deductions 'to hit' for the Medium and Long Range bands? If so, how are they calculated?

2. Can these behemoths toss boulders EVERY round? "You see a flurry of bovine-sized rocks is heading your way from 200 paces off!" On rocky ground a couple of giants would make a nice howitzer battery.

3. Giants are creatures of significant hit dice, I am also assuming that they add that number to their 'to hit' roll as well. Thus they become almost Snipers with those boulders! A Storm Giant will be adding +17 to his roll and even the 'meagre' Hill Giant gets to add +9. Impressive.

Your thoughts?

Good question, sir! Here's my interpretation of this.

In the PHB, there are listed penalties for "medium" and "long" ranges. Medium ranges suffer a -2 penalty and long ranges are penalized with a -6 to attack rolls. I would assume these penalties would apply to the boulders as well. The Storm Giant you mentioned can throw rocks "up to 780 feet." I would say that this is a listed maximum, which you already alluded to. So simply dividing by three should give you the range increments you need. In the Storm Giant's case you have:

0-260 ft. - Close (no penalty)
261-520 ft. - Medium (-2 penalty)
521-780 ft. - Long (-6 penalty)

As to whether they can throw every round? I'd say that's a CK decision. While's it's not stated in the rules that they cannot, a little logic should be used. How many "bovine-sized" rocks are they going to have lying about to hurl at the PCs? I would certainly think they'd have a few, but I wouldn't think they have more than two or three. At least that's what I'd rule as a CK.

And yes, they add their HD to attacks. So the aformentioned storm giants do have a +17 to their attack. One could possibly house rule that something as small as a human being attacked by a boulder from a 1/7 of a mile away could get a +2 to their AC for each size category difference, much akin to the grappling rules, but in reverse (and this being in addition to the penalites to attack). Since the storm giant is large, a human would get a +2 to AC against the boulder, and the giant would suffer a -6 to attack. I would also rule that the size bonus to AC would go away at short range (so the AC bonus only applies at medium and long ranges).

But then again, I'd probably stress the heroes use cover and running (or other good thinking and strategy) to close the gap as fast as possible! I left the above house rule in for those who'd might like to use something like this, but the more I think about it, I probably wouldn't use it. Part of the XP for defeating the encounter and taking the giant's treasure would be finding a way to avoid an attack like this and to engage it in melee. Making a house rule to make it easier kind of cheapens the encounter in my opinion.

[TheMetal1]

Pretty much what Lord D said.

1. The are penalties for various ranges (which D listed).
2. With a round being 10 seconds in C&C, I wouldn't see a problem for a giant to find a rock in their general vicinty and chuck it. Might not be a boulder, but a 9 to 15 foot tall dude lobbing a rock the size of a cinderblock like a Baseball pitcher would still hurt. Better get into Melee fast.
3. Yup, HD is added in the ranged "to hit" At least with the Hill Giant, at Long range it is only a +3 instead of a 9 (-6 for the range)