Tithing for clerics and druids

[tylermo]

Got a cleric and a druid in my A-series game. Just wrapped up A0, and I'm wondering, especially with the cleric, if there's any sort of required tithing? If so, what percentage? Thanks.

[CKDad]

Nothing in the rules as far as I can remember, but that doesn't mean you can't add it! Or make it part of the conditions for levelling up.

[tylermo]

I'm sure I'm remembering that from previous editions of D&D. Maybe for clerics and/or paladins. You want the party to keep spending that money. If you were going to do it, what would a reccommended amount be? Perhaps, I'll dig out my 1e, 2e, and 3e books looking for that info. IF, I'm remembering that correctly.

[Traveller]

From.my memory, but I believe this is from.AD&D.

Clerics: 10% if I recall.
Paladins: had to give up virtually everything except what they needed to survive.

[tylermo]

That sounds like what I remember. I think it's 10 percent for Christians, so why not for the cleric?

[redwullf]

The word "tithe" means "one-tenth" of something. "Tithing" means, literally, "One tenth of your wealth."

10% is fitting, in this context.

However, keep in mind that adventuring clerics may be expected to establish new churches/temples as they level. With that in mind, you may wish to allow your clerics (and even druids) to retain their wealth, with the understanding it will go towards the construction of new religious sites. Additionally, you may want to allow them to "tithe" in ways that are more helpful to specific communities - padding the coffers of struggling villages, purchasing healing for a community suffering from famine, etc. This idea is entirely open for the player and CK to explore and build upon.

[Lord Crimson]

I'd make tithing voluntary, but grant XP in exchange for the expended gp.

Then I'd allow the other PCs to expend gold in other ways that are useless to them (no real net benefit/gain from the expense) to get similar bonus XP.

So the barbarian and thief blow their cash on liquor and whores. The fighter "trains". The wizard researches magical "stuff". The knight sends the cash back to his financially-strapped noble family. So on and so forth.

So long as the PCs get no further benefit from the expense besides XP, then everyone is "balanced" in it's use.

[The Evil DM]

In my games the priests were expected to give at least 60%to the church or charities.

Good temples give to the poor
war temples give to the "old soldiers home"
Thieve temples want their cut and that's that
temples of artificers support the arts
lawful gods have civic projects to fund
nature temples have beautification projects
and of course they all have their war chests for the end of days

if clerics in my campaigns want access to higher levels and spells they need to support the faith generously and frequently.

[Andred of Albans]

I handle XP for GP a little differently,

General Awards:
Being an adventurer: 1 xp/day
Being on an adventure: 2 xp/day

Class Awards
Assassins:
brewing poisons: 100xp x poison type
assassinating a target: 100xp x level/HD
being a guildmaster assassin: 5 xp/day
being a guild syndic assassin: 3 xp/day
fencing loot: 1 xp/3 gp
Assassination fees: 1 xp/ 1 gp
Killing Foes (except by assassination): 25% normal xp
Murdering or assassinating foes: 100% normal xp

Bards:
Legend Lore: 1 xp/10 gp of value of item
performing: 2 xp/day
composing a new song, poem, lay, etc.: 1000 xp
loot from stand-up fight: 33% normal xp
gate receipts: 1 xp/ 1 gp
killing foes in combat: 33% normal xp
fighting a duel: 100xp * opponent's Level/HD
Winning a duel: 250xp * opponent's Level/HD

Clerics:
Building a temple/synagogue/church/mosque: 1 xp/ 1 gp spent
tithing: 1 xp/ 1gp spent
calling down a miracle (clerical spell): 100 xp * spell level
converting the infidel: 100 xp * level/HD
killing foes in combat: 25% normal xp
Smiting the enemies of G-d and Mankind: 100% normal xp
Turning undead: 75% xp for killing them
Destroying Undead (any means): 100% normal xp

Druid:
Maintaining a sacred grove: 1 xp/ 1gp spent
calling down a miracle: 100 xp * spell level
driving off despoilers of nature: 100 xp * level/HD
killing foes in combat: 25% normal xp
mentoring a ranger: 100 xp * level/HD

Fighter:
Going to war: 2 xp/day
Spoils of war: 1xp/1gp seized
Wages as a mercenary: 1xp/3 gp earned
Ransoms: 1xp/ 2gp claimed
Killing foes in combat: 100% normal xp
Murdering foes: 33% normal xp

Illusionist:
Magical research: 2xp/day
Casting spells: 100xp * spell level
killing/defeating foes with magic: 100% normal xp
killing foes by mundane means: 10% normal xp
making magic item: xp value of item
Magic loot: 100% normal xp

Knight:
Going to war: 2 xp/day
Spoils of war: 1xp/1gp seized
Ransoms: 1xp/ 2gp claimed
Feudal Rents: 1 xp/ 5gp claimed
Killing foes in combat: 100% normal xp
Murdering foes: 10% normal xp

Paladin:
Going to war/crusade: 2 xp/day
Feudal Rents: 1 xp/ 5gp claimed
Killing foes in combat: 50% normal xp
Smiting the enemies of G-d and Mankind: 100% normal experience

Ranger:
Going to war: 2xp/day
Spoils of war: 1xp/1gp seized
Killing foes in combat: 50% normal xp
Smiting the enemies of the goddess: 100% normal xp

Wizard:
Magical research: 2xp/day
Casting spells: 100xp * spell level
killing/defeating foes with magic: 100% normal xp
killing foes by mundane means: 10% normal xp
making magic item: xp value of item
Magic loot: 100% normal xp

[Lurker]

if clerics in my campaigns want access to higher levels and spells they need to support the faith generously and frequently.

Rgr on that, them and Paladins

As for non Cleric/Paladins, I allow them to tithe for a benefit. It helps when the character needs that important heal spell when the god/goddes they are asking help from has been well paid before the emergency.

Also, I will give benefits for some of what Lord Crimson pointed out.

[Lord Dynel]

No disrespect to Andred, or anyone who uses these, but I got away from using these "XP menus" as I like to call them, a long time ago. As a CK (or DM, or GM), I don't feel codified conditions for XP distribution are necessary. And I don't like players to get their hands on lists like that because sometimes it promotes actions that are geared more towards gaining XP than playing the game. But again, no disrespect to those who do.

That being said, I would probably give XP for players who outright say they're tithing without any prompting from me (and maybe at the rate of 1 XP / 1 GP). I like the idea of keeping wealth, but only for purposes of building a church somewhere. But that's a grey area - I'd love it if the players came up with that idea but as soon as I did, there would be no XP bonus award. For a grand idea like that (the church) I might award a whole level worth of XP - that's about the epitome of a cleric's life motivations, in my humble opinion.

[Traveller]

I guess my setup is a little unusual in that players don't earn EXP for donations or for the necessities of character improvement, i.e. training. They only earn EXP on what they spend, as long as its the town that benefits from the influx of money.

[Rikitiki]

In my old 1e days, "banks" were places where they'd hold you monies and protect it for a fee. I'm thinking maybe in my C&C games of having temples play the role of banks -- giving a small percentage of interest as long as you allow them to use your monies to make loans, charging a fee if all you do is have them protect your stuff.

And, of course, banks of any type make wonderful 'evil crew' adventures for parties trying to rob them.

[Lurker]

In my old 1e days, "banks" were places where they'd hold you monies and protect it for a fee. I'm thinking maybe in my C&C games of having temples play the role of banks -- giving a small percentage of interest as long as you allow them to use your monies to make loans, charging a fee if all you do is have them protect your stuff.

And, of course, banks of any type make wonderful 'evil crew' adventures for parties trying to rob them.

I'm with you on that. I plan on having various orders do that for their members (ala one of the historic role of the Templar), families that are know as banking families or providing loans and holding monies (the Medici or the Jewish father in Ivanhoe) etc.

With that it will bring in a "social" element into my home-brew and make it important for the players to build more depth into the characters than the normal I have a 5th level knight, and have sworn allegiance to duke so&so (who they haven't seen in over three levels...)

As for "evil crew" adventures, I don't plan on allowing my players to be evil, but it will give them opportunities to chase down the bad guys that try to do said hist and earn brownie points with the wealthy orders/families etc.

[GameOgre]

From my house rules.

Resurrection Survival: The Gods reward those who are faithful in life with the possibility of Resurrection. In other words,unless the character was faithful in there duty to honor and worship a God of that pantheon Resurrection is Denied in most circumstances. A flat 10% Tith for non Clerics,Druids and Paladins. A 40% for all Clerics,Druids and Paladins. If the Tith is honored then Resurrection(should it be cast) is guaranteed. If Tith is NOT meet then Resurrection Survival must be rolled for and a unmodified 18 or higher must be rolled for non clergy and 12 or higher for all clergy.

[Dead Horse]

I like the pay to play (resurrection) idea. Consider the idea yoinked.

[Andred of Albans]

No disrespect to Andred, or anyone who uses these, but I got away from using these "XP menus" as I like to call them, a long time ago. As a CK (or DM, or GM), I don't feel codified conditions for XP distribution are necessary. And I don't like players to get their hands on lists like that because sometimes it promotes actions that are geared more towards gaining XP than playing the game. But again, no disrespect to those who do.

I understand your point - when I drew this list up my intention was to encourage, through positive reinforcement, "in character" role-playing by my gamers. XP do not come from "kill the monster & steal its treasure" - they come from class appropriate acts which, presumably, will make the character a better priest, warrior, wizard, etc.

The list isn't really a "rule" - it's more of a guideline to help me determine what XP awards are appropriate for specific actions. Otherwise, it has been my experience, that players will devolve into little more than self-righteous, racist, bandits justifying their actions simply because the previous owner of their ill-gotten gains was not a human, elf, dwarf, gnome or halfling. Why is it okay to plunder the Orcs but not okay when they return the favor?

Shouldn't the priest of a loving god want to convert the goblins rather than slaughter them? I a previous run of my "Banestorm" campaign a cleric character did exactly this - instead of letting the other PCs butcher the goblins he preached to them. His character eventually became the ArchPrelate of Faldorshire and after the death of the PC, he was canonized as St. Philodorus the Merciful, the patron of goblins and wandering preachers.

That being said, I would probably give XP for players who outright say they're tithing without any prompting from me (and maybe at the rate of 1 XP / 1 GP). I like the idea of keeping wealth, but only for purposes of building a church somewhere. But that's a grey area - I'd love it if the players came up with that idea but as soon as I did, there would be no XP bonus award. For a grand idea like that (the church) I might award a whole level worth of XP - that's about the epitome of a cleric's life motivations, in my humble opinion.

I see your approach - you are looking for the same result I am, but you are doing it by DM's fiat (nothing at all wrong with that! ) whereas I am doing it systemically. It's a matter of style. If you can keep it straight and keep rewards/penalties commensurate with the acts in question and your players feel you are being fair - then all is well.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Shouldn't the priest of a loving god want to convert the goblins rather than slaughter them? I a previous run of my "Banestorm" campaign a cleric character did exactly this - instead of letting the other PCs butcher the goblins he preached to them. His character eventually became the ArchPrelate of Faldorshire and after the death of the PC, he was canonized as St. Philodorus the Merciful, the patron of goblins and wandering preachers.

Now there is role playing, and something which came up in my Runequest campaign of 1981-1984. My congratulations to your player and you, as gamemaster!

Come to think of it, we had a hedonist character convert to Christianity instantly (and in a panic) in a Call of Cthulhu episode around that time. He'd tried everything else to save his sanity!

[Lord Dynel]

No disrespect to Andred, or anyone who uses these, but I got away from using these "XP menus" as I like to call them, a long time ago. As a CK (or DM, or GM), I don't feel codified conditions for XP distribution are necessary. And I don't like players to get their hands on lists like that because sometimes it promotes actions that are geared more towards gaining XP than playing the game. But again, no disrespect to those who do.

I understand your point - when I drew this list up my intention was to encourage, through positive reinforcement, "in character" role-playing by my gamers. XP do not come from "kill the monster & steal its treasure" - they come from class appropriate acts which, presumably, will make the character a better priest, warrior, wizard, etc.

The list isn't really a "rule" - it's more of a guideline to help me determine what XP awards are appropriate for specific actions. Otherwise, it has been my experience, that players will devolve into little more than self-righteous, racist, bandits justifying their actions simply because the previous owner of their ill-gotten gains was not a human, elf, dwarf, gnome or halfling. Why is it okay to plunder the Orcs but not okay when they return the favor?

Shouldn't the priest of a loving god want to convert the goblins rather than slaughter them? I a previous run of my "Banestorm" campaign a cleric character did exactly this - instead of letting the other PCs butcher the goblins he preached to them. His character eventually became the ArchPrelate of Faldorshire and after the death of the PC, he was canonized as St. Philodorus the Merciful, the patron of goblins and wandering preachers.

That being said, I would probably give XP for players who outright say they're tithing without any prompting from me (and maybe at the rate of 1 XP / 1 GP). I like the idea of keeping wealth, but only for purposes of building a church somewhere. But that's a grey area - I'd love it if the players came up with that idea but as soon as I did, there would be no XP bonus award. For a grand idea like that (the church) I might award a whole level worth of XP - that's about the epitome of a cleric's life motivations, in my humble opinion.

I see your approach - you are looking for the same result I am, but you are doing it by DM's fiat (nothing at all wrong with that! ) whereas I am doing it systemically. It's a matter of style. If you can keep it straight and keep rewards/penalties commensurate with the acts in question and your players feel you are being fair - then all is well.

Yes, indeed. There is certainly nothing wrong with guidelines. And I can understand the devolving of players. I call mine "murdering hobos, " myself. Or I have in the past. The issue of plundering the orcs is a good example. Because they do it "in the name of all that is good and right," of course, is why they do it! Or at least they think so. In truth, there isn't much difference. Hopefully, to right a wrong, and factoring in the party's alignment, it would hopefully be clear that they were doing "the right thing" (and I hate using that terminology). The real issue is when the "evil" is vanquished and the wrong righted. Sometimes, it's how that wrong is righted. Sometimes it’s the extracurricular activities you alluded to - they drive out or kill the orcs, but take the loot the orcs stole from passerby’s or from raiding the local villages for their own? That's not particularly "good," now is it? What if they donated all the gains to churches in local villages or found the rightful owners? That would be of good moral character, and worthy of an XP award. Maybe keeping a pittance for themselves. Keeping some for themselves wouldn't necessarily warrant a penalty, but alignment considerations should definitely be considered. But I'm digressing, and I apologize. In case it was veiled, I agree with you. My issue is that if they need a list of what they can get awards for, I feel it takes away from the experience. Like it's fake, in a way, that the party's bard wants to pen a new work not because he wants to, or he's inspired by some heroic deed, but because he saw that it's worth 1,000 xp to do so. And what if the party wants nothing more than to be those murdering hobo's in the first place? To wander from town to town and find adventure, fattening up their coin purse?

I'm digressing again. My apologies. In the end, we both agree that the players should get xp for more that just beating up the monsters and taking their stuff. How we go about that in individually is just semantics...and good conversation!

[Andred of Albans]

Yes, indeed. There is certainly nothing wrong with guidelines. And I can understand the devolving of players. I call mine "murdering hobos, " myself. Or I have in the past.

Murdering Hobos... I like that!

I called them uncircumcised Philistines

The issue of plundering the orcs is a good example. Because they do it "in the name of all that is good and right," of course, is why they do it! Or at least they think so. In truth, there isn't much difference. ... Sometimes it’s the extracurricular activities you alluded to - they drive out or kill the orcs, but take the loot the orcs stole from passerby’s or from raiding the local villages for their own? That's not particularly "good," now is it?

No it isn't. I understand the whole spoils of war concept but if XP=GP then what reason do the players have to get into the Heroic spirit?

I am a big fan of the Heroic tradition - the protagonists should be the heroes of men, not the scum of the earth who happen to have some fancy skills.

What if they donated all the gains to churches in local villages or found the rightful owners? That would be of good moral character, and worthy of an XP award. Maybe keeping a pittance for themselves. Keeping some for themselves wouldn't necessarily warrant a penalty, but alignment considerations should definitely be considered.

Ahhhhh! See, there's the thing. I would definited give awards for that sort of behavior even if it's not "on the list" because that's precisely the Heroic thing to do!

But I'm digressing, and I apologize. In case it was veiled, I agree with you.

I got that (always knew you were a bright one)

My issue is that if they need a list of what they can get awards for, I feel it takes away from the experience. Like it's fake, in a way, that the party's bard wants to pen a new work not because he wants to, or he's inspired by some heroic deed, but because he saw that it's worth 1,000 xp to do so.

While I can see your point, and I don't actually show the players the contents of my DM's notebook (too much seekrit stuff there) they will soon figure out the sort of behavior they are expected to exhibit when they see what awards I give. If they did get a gander at the XP guidelines, no worry - it might act as a spur to the imagination. If the gal who plays a bard can actually write a song or poetry - I will give bonus points simply to acknowledge the effort, but if not simply declaring the attempt is worth an award too for good role-playing if nothing else.

And what if the party wants nothing more than to be those murdering hobo's in the first place? To wander from town to town and find adventure, fattening up their coin purse?

There's a reason the bad guys ultimately loose in every good story... murdering hoboes tend to attract the attention of noble knights, righteously outraged nobles and other heroic sorts. I tend to discourage villians as PCs in my games - good natured rouges a'la Han Solo, Porthos, or Robin Hood or the like, sure. You want to play the Dark Lord... I'm probably not the DM you are looking for. I expect my players to portray the heroes and if you look at the skew of the games, most of the designers seem to as well.

I am not saying DM's who run PC villian games are bad nor are the players who play them - but don't we see enough slime getting away with murder in real life? Is that how you want to spend your hobby time too?

As an experiment, I let my group try playing Orcs for a limited story arc (6 adventures) just to try being the bad guys... it was enlightening in that they got to see things from the goblin point of view - and the dastardly deeds of the orcs seemed more like legitimate warfare in short order. This story arc was in response to some criticism of one of my player's cleric PC (Philodorus of Falworth) for refusing to kill orcs until he had a chance to preach to them. The game was run while the Philodorus' player was hospitalized and when he returned, the rest of the group was 100% on board with the good cleric. It was made all the more poignant when the same player died 2 years later - we canonized his character right before he entered hospice and I must say both the PC and the player deserved it.

The story of St. Philodorus, at least to me, is why I don't encourage evil PCs. The entire value of that campaign was in the lessons the PC told through role-playing and the even more real lessons we all learned from Phil - the player. I just personally find evil and/or amoral protagonist characters to be banal and boring.

I'm digressing again. My apologies. In the end, we both agree that the players should get xp for more that just beating up the monsters and taking their stuff. How we go about that in individually is just semantics...and good conversation!

I quite agree!

[Arduin]

In my game world there is no large organization for druids. As they are not focused on civilization, they don't think in terms of money. A druid is simply expected to contribute to the stability of nature as to the best of their ability.

For clerics, it varies wildly depending on the deity/sect.

[tylermo]

I think I largely agree about the Druids. Clerics can be played by ear.