Ranger Damage??

[Lobo316]

OK, I have to ask, since I have not run the game long enough to know, but the rangers Combat Maurader damage...+1 PER LEVEL?

Is that a bit overdone? Overpowered/excessive?

Just some quick feedback would be most appreciated. How does this function at higher levels? It seems to me that a ranger hitting a humaniod/giant at leve 20...getting +20 damage...wow, that just seems "too tough". Maybe +1 at every 2 levels I could see, but again, I need some feedback that those with more experience on the subject.

Thanks in advance!

<edit - Corrected Favored Enemy to Combat Maurader>

[mabon5127]

OK, I have to ask, since I have not run the game long enough to know, but the rangers favored enemy damage...+1 PER LEVEL?

Is that a bit overdone? Overpowered/excessive?

Just some quick feedback would be most appreciated. How does this function at higher levels? It seems to me that a ranger hitting a humaniod/giant at leve 20...getting +20 damage...wow, that just seems "too tough". Maybe +1 at every 2 levels I could see, but again, I need some feedback that those with more experience on the subject.

Thanks in advance!

Actually I think you mean combat marauder. The favored enemy gives +2 to hit, ac vs, and to track, a specific enemy. I believe the +1 per level damage is a hold over from the origins of the ranger class in AD&D 1E.

It is way out of whack compared to anything a fighter can do against a large segment of enemies. Lots of creatures in the monster book are classified as humanoids or giants and tend to be the more common enemies.

I have a campaign with 2 rangers (both 7th level) in the party and they can make mince meat out of giants and this usually means the party can take on higher level (giant / humanoid) enemies than heir level would allow.

Having said all that, does this ruin our fun or make the game unplayable for us? Nope. I just always thought the ranger class was dumb in 1e and still do a little.

[mabon5127]

Actually I don't mean dumb that's too strong. Just not the way I envisioned the class.

[Arduin]

OK, I have to ask, since I have not run the game long enough to know, but the rangers favored enemy damage...+1 PER LEVEL?

Is that a bit overdone? Overpowered/excessive?

Yes I do. I changed it to just his "favored enemy" not all humanoids & giants. So, if the ranger chose Trolls, he gets +1/level only against that creature.

[Omote]

If the Ranger only get's one attack per round as per the PHB, then I do not think that these damages are out of line. If you start adding in your own additional attacks per round for higher level, or multiple bow shots per round as per the CKG, the damage output might be too high.

~O

[Lobo316]

OK, I have to ask, since I have not run the game long enough to know, but the rangers favored enemy damage...+1 PER LEVEL?

Is that a bit overdone? Overpowered/excessive?

Yes I do. I changed it to just his "favored enemy" not all humanoids & giants. So, if the ranger chose Trolls, he gets +1/level only against that creature.

Hey Arduin, did you move his favored enemy to 1st level? I like the simplicity of doing that, however, I think that's too restrictive. Unless your allowing more than one favored enemy, but that's getting bit complicated.

I think I am going to just change that to +1 for every 2 levels (minimum of 1). That's still pretty tough, and still applies to a large cross-section of monsters.

[csperkins1970]

I do this instead

Combat Marauder: Rangers possess an extraordinary ability to combat their most common foes; goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and giants, due to intense training and study of their enemy‘s fighting techniques. When fighting bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs or giants (giants, trolls, ogres and the like) rangers gain a bonus to their attack and damage rolls. This bonus starts at +2 at 1st level and increases by 1 point at levels 6, 11 and 16.
At the DM‘s discretion the races may be altered to better suit the ranger‘s background or campaign setting. Examples of possible races or racial groups that could be chosen are: aberrations (abolleth, beholders, mind flayers), aquatic humanoids (locathah, mermen, sahuagin and tritons), dinosaurs, dragons, dwarves, elves, faeries (brownies, pixies, sprites, etc), giants (ogres, giants and trolls), gnolls, gnomes, goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears), halflings, humans, kobolds, lizardmen, lycanthropes, magical beasts, orcs, plants, etc. Sahuagin rangers, for example, would typically have aquatic humanoids, ixitxachitl, and lizardmen as favored enemies. Goblinoid and orcish rangers would typically gain favored enemy bonuses against dwarves, elves, and humans. Giant rangers would typically have dwarves, gnomes and humans as favored enemies.

[Lobo316]

I do this instead

Combat Marauder: Rangers possess an extraordinary ability to combat their most common foes; goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and giants, due to intense training and study of their enemy‘s fighting techniques. When fighting bugbears, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs or giants (giants, trolls, ogres and the like) rangers gain a bonus to their attack and damage rolls. This bonus starts at +2 at 1st level and increases by 1 point at levels 6, 11 and 16.
At the DM‘s discretion the races may be altered to better suit the ranger‘s background or campaign setting. Examples of possible races or racial groups that could be chosen are: aberrations (abolleth, beholders, mind flayers), aquatic humanoids (locathah, mermen, sahuagin and tritons), dinosaurs, dragons, dwarves, elves, faeries (brownies, pixies, sprites, etc), giants (ogres, giants and trolls), gnolls, gnomes, goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears), halflings, humans, kobolds, lizardmen, lycanthropes, magical beasts, orcs, plants, etc. Sahuagin rangers, for example, would typically have aquatic humanoids, ixitxachitl, and lizardmen as favored enemies. Goblinoid and orcish rangers would typically gain favored enemy bonuses against dwarves, elves, and humans. Giant rangers would typically have dwarves, gnomes and humans as favored enemies.

I like this as well. I am assuming you removed the gaining of favored enemy at level 6, as it appears you folded the two abilities into one?

I'll consider this method as well. Certainly seems to be a bit more balanced then a 10th level rangers getting a guanenteed +10 to damage (not including his STR bonus) on any given hit. Granted, thier attack value goes up.

Leaning toward just doing +1 damage for every two leves of the ranger and since I am playing with with Advantages from the CKG, maybe give the ranger a choice of a bonus feat at level 1 (run by attack, swift strike, two weapon expert, toughness, long hunter, sharpshooter or skirmisher) regardless of if they meet the prereq.

[csperkins1970]

I did fold both abilities together. So far it's worked well in my game.

[Arduin]

Hey Arduin, did you move his favored enemy to 1st level? I like the simplicity of doing that, however, I think that's too restrictive. Unless your allowing more than one favored enemy, but that's getting bit complicated.

I think I am going to just change that to +1 for every 2 levels (minimum of 1). That's still pretty tough, and still applies to a large cross-section of monsters.

Yes, starts at 1st level. Can add more if he wishes. Can only add a +1 bonus/level to any ONE. So, at 10th level could have 2 favored, each with a +5...

[Relaxo]

At 20th level a regular giant isn't much of a challenge anyway, so +20damage per hit doesn't worry me. I think this ismeant to be a tight definition of giant, the humanoid ones like stone giants, not any giant creature, so against a 30 HD giant beaver (why the hell? I don't know, just work with me here) would not grant the Ranger the bonus. (if that helps)

but having not read the thread, id' say if it bothers you change it +1 every even level after level 10. by 20th level the fighter has three attacks every round and double specialization, so I think it matches well. the fighter hits everything but the ranger lays the smack down on ranger enemies, but is behind the fighter if it's something not on the list. (generalist vs specialist)

[Lord Dynel]

I'm one that never saw that much of an issue with it. Giants and humanoids are a very small slice of the monster population. Okay, giants are. Humanoids are a fairly good-sized slice. But most humanoids are going to be cannon fodder anyway, by the time Combat Marauder really starts to matter (in my opinion, 5th-level). Giants, on the other hand, will be a challenge despite Combat Marauder for quite a few levels. I put this in the same category as turning undead - really powerful when you face the correct foe, but worthless when you're not.

And that conversation we had a while back about giants' rock throwing? It's all because of these damned rangers that they can throw rocks so far!

[Lobo316]

Thanks for the replies all. It does, indeed, bother me, so this is what I am going with....

Combat Marauder
Combat Marauder is altered to +1 damage for every two levels of experience. Additionally, the ranger is able to select a bonus advantage at 1st level (this is in addition to the normal advantage characters get at first level, and the ranger is able to select this feat regardless of if he meets the prerequisites). Select one of the following: Run by Attack, Swift Strike, Two Weapon Expert, Toughness, Longhunter, Sharpshooter or Skirmisher

Even if I wasn't playing with advantages, I'd make this change to damage (+1 for every 2 levels) and let the ranger pick one of those listed advantages to have as a "class feature".

Thanks again all!

[serleran]

The "humanoid" bonus needs a clarification to make sense -- it should apply only to those of an established threat. Orcs, goblins, kobolds... and for the evil rangers (since C&C allows them) potentially humans, dwarfs, elfs, et cetera.

In my games, I make the combat marauder ability a supernatural bent in that it will only work on foes specific to the ranger's homeland, whether he is aware of it ir not.

[mbeacom]

I don't see this as particularly overpowered. As others have said. By the time the damage bonus is significant humanoids have already become cannon fodder. By the time it becomes very significant, few of the enemies will be humanoid and the power will be worthless. I would be a sad ranger panda if the one really cool power I had got nerfed.

[Lurker]

...
And that conversation we had a while back about giants' rock throwing? It's all because of these damned rangers that they can throw rocks so far!

Good point there!

I'm with you on not having an issue with the power of the ability. Yeah the ranger can kill an orc with one swing, but when there is 20 of the buggers, ... Plus when the "monster" isn't an orc/goblin etc the ranger will be second fiddle at best to a fighter.

[Lobo316]

...
And that conversation we had a while back about giants' rock throwing? It's all because of these damned rangers that they can throw rocks so far!

Good point there!

I'm with you on not having an issue with the power of the ability. Yeah the ranger can kill an orc with one swing, but when there is 20 of the buggers, ... Plus when the "monster" isn't an orc/goblin etc the ranger will be second fiddle at best to a fighter.

OK, Lurker and Mbeacom, thanks for your input, but let me ask you this, both of you seem to agree that, outside of that sepcial ability, the fighter will "suffer" or "play second fiddle" to the fighter.

I agree with you both on this so, with that in mind, what do you think about my "house rule" (posted ablove)? I have reduced the damage a bit, but given the ranger an advantage that makes this a tad more "flexible". At level 10, they still get +5 to damage (nothing to sneeze at, and you've not even dropped any dice yet), plus, they have also gained something else to potentially make you more useful outside of fighting "humaniods".

I prefer this to not be "nerfing" as much as I consider it "better design".

Anyhow, I am curious to your thoughts, and thanks for your feedback.

[mbeacom]

Well, I don't necessarily think your changes break anything too badly. I would not call them "better design" though. The point of the ranger, IMO is that he's a specialist. It's not better design to make him less so and more of an "all around". The pure fighter is an "all around". Is HE better designed than the Ranger? I'd say not. They're simply designed to be different. While giving the advantage helps a little with the pain of nerfing the Rangers greatest asset, I don't think it fixes it completely. The advantages you mention are pretty well balanced. Meaning, yes, you gain some advantage but at a cost. For example, the skirmisher lets you move your full move but at the cost of 2 AC (Swift Strike requires that he be unencumbered and Run-By risks a reprisal). So many of the advantages are already a give and a take. Since you're taking away a pretty healthy chunk of what makes a ranger special (big bonus to damage vs. humanoids) I don't think you can fix it by replacing it with something that requires yet another payment as most of those advantages do. This is just my opinion and I think your game will run just fine as you describe. As an avid player of the Ranger however, I'm telling you, it would kind of be a bummer. But it's your game and you get to make the call. I certainly wouldn't refuse to play because of it. I might choose a different class though. (I'm always skittish to play a class the DM feels the need to redesign to be less powerful as you never know when he may think what you're doing is too awesome and "fix it" some more)

To me, a much better way to handle this would be to design your enemies based on knowing the power exists as intended. If you're concerned that the Ranger is too powerful vs humanoids, then make sure to include more non-humanoids for the party to come up against (humanoids often have trained beasts afterall). By 10th level, humanoids should rarely be the main threat anyway. And at 10th level, the advantages will start to feel pretty puny.

[Lobo316]

Well, I don't necessarily think your changes break anything too badly. I would not call them "better design" though. The point of the ranger, IMO is that he's a specialist. It's not better design to make him less so and more of an "all around". The pure fighter is an "all around". Is HE better designed than the Ranger? I'd say not. They're simply designed to be different. While giving the advantage helps a little with the pain of nerfing the Rangers greatest asset, I don't think it fixes it completely. The advantages you mention are pretty well balanced. Meaning, yes, you gain some advantage but at a cost. For example, the skirmisher lets you move your full move but at the cost of 2 AC (Swift Strike requires that he be unencumbered and Run-By risks a reprisal). So many of the advantages are already a give and a take. Since you're taking away a pretty healthy chunk of what makes a ranger special (big bonus to damage vs. humanoids) I don't think you can fix it by replacing it with something that requires yet another payment as most of those advantages do. This is just my opinion and I think your game will run just fine as you describe. As an avid player of the Ranger however, I'm telling you, it would kind of be a bummer. But it's your game and you get to make the call. I certainly wouldn't refuse to play because of it. I might choose a different class though. (I'm always skittish to play a class the DM feels the need to redesign to be less powerful as you never know when he may think what you're doing is too awesome and "fix it" some more)

To me, a much better way to handle this would be to design your enemies based on knowing the power exists as intended. If you're concerned that the Ranger is too powerful vs humanoids, then make sure to include more non-humanoids for the party to come up against (humanoids often have trained beasts afterall). By 10th level, humanoids should rarely be the main threat anyway. And at 10th level, the advantages will start to feel pretty puny.

Hmmmm...well, thank you very much for your input. Based on that feedback, I will do the following...

The Ranger damage will be 1 + 1 at every even level (small boost), and I will give the ranger a bonus feat at 1st and 4th level.

OR...I will allow the player to run the rangers as printed, out of the book. Players call. I will include the option, but leave it up to the player.

Thanks again for the honest, and insightful, feedback. ;o)

[mbeacom]

That honestly sounds like the best solution yet. I think your "hybrid" Ranger is still very solid and it gives the player the option: Do you want to be a hyper specialist and risk feeling less useful against non-humanoids? Or do you want to be a bit more balanced in your output? I would add to that, that perhaps you make it clear that the campaign will challenge both builds regardless so the player doesn't try to guess which will be "better". That way he will choose which more appeals to his idea for the character. I actually quite like playing specialists (if you couldn't tell by my responses). I like the idea of a character who has sacrificed certain areas to be more powerful in others. All-arounds can be fun too but I like giving the DM a weakness to work with and to force me to deal with. Likewise, it gives the DM the ability to set a player up for success. Good conversation, I'm confident your players will be happy regardless since it seems like getting feedback really matters to you (even if you ultimately don't agree with it). That's the sign of a good DM.

[Lobo316]

Thanks for the kind words, and heck yes input matters to me. I may be the GM, but there is a plethora of other GMs out there that have all had different experiences and such to share and, more than likely, have had far different experiences then I have (be it good or bad).

Be a fool not to pull from all the experience

[Dead Horse]

By the time the Ranger is getting to nice damage with that ability, aren't Warriors getting multiple attacks?

[GameOgre]

I see a +10 bonus as the max I feel comfortable with. Not really sure why +10 is THAT number. I think if I ever had a player reach 10th level I would instead let him pick new targets for a new bonus to apply the maxed bonus to.

At 12th level maybe he can choose to apply the bonus to all demons,devils and other minions of the nine hells! at 14th level he can apply the bonus to all Dragons Drakes and Dragonlings. 16th he could choose to add Drow,Mindflayers and Beholders to that list ect...

Note- I let most of the martial class's add extra attacks already so need to balance everything out.

[Relaxo]

G.O. that's a pretty nifty idea...

[mbeacom]

Agreed.