Code of honor for lawful evil knight?

[tylermo]

One of my A-series players is playing a lawful evil knight. He was curious about how the code of conduct might vary for his alignment. Thanks.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

1. First is ALWAYS death before dishonor, regardless of alignment.
2. Faith to the extent of boastful, gloating pride in himself.
3. Loyalty...this one's easy to abuse.
4. Excellence...again, with a mouth as big as his, he needs to be able to back it up.

[gideon_thorne]

The Knights of Takkisis from Dragonlance were an excellent example of lawful evil, IMHO.

http://dragonlance.wikia.com/wiki/Knights_of_Neraka

http://www.josiahknight.com/game/dragon ... hisis.html

Some solid examples here.

[AGNKim]

Lawful Evil to me has always been a lot like organized crime, specifically the entity we know as "The Mafia". Have him act like some Godfather.

[Relaxo]

Great thread!
I think the Lawful in LE is not the law of the land, but a way of behaving in a predictable way by a cod of honor so this all makes total sense.

[zarathustra]

I would say if any knight, even an evil one wants to keep his abilities, he must always display courage- how can he inspire others if they do not respect his courage under fire.

[Arduin]

One of my A-series players is playing a lawful evil knight. He was curious about how the code of conduct might vary for his alignment. Thanks.

Remember to REALLY go by the definition of evil in the PHB. "Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to
some evil deity."

Honor: respect highly; to reverence, worship; to regard or treat with respect.

So, a lawful evil "code of honor" will probably revolve around carrying out the aims & goals of a powerful evil entity with enthusiasm. The person will also be selfish. Crushing those beneath him in carrying out these aims...

[Lord Dynel]

The person will also be selfish.

I agree with your post, Arduin, with a small exception to this quote. And, I'll admit, that maybe it's my misconception about the evil alignments but I always saw this more as the province of Neutral Evil (followed by CE as the second most selfish). I can definitely see where they can be considered selfish, but to me it's more opportunistic than selfish. But, that's my opinion and we know what they all say about opinions...



Anyway, I've used this website's views for further fleshing out or explanation of alignments. The link takes you directly to the Lawful Evil page, where a "Code of Conduct" can be found. I think it might work pretty well for a LE knight.

The Lawful Evil Code

A code of conduct for a lawful evil organization may look like this:

1. You shall not lie.

2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order.

3. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order.

4. You shall not aid the weak.

5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades.

6. You shall follow the law.

7. You shall not betray others.

8. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak.

9. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades.

10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society.

[Arduin]

The person will also be selfish.

I agree with your post, Arduin, with a small exception to this quote. And, I'll admit, that maybe it's my misconception about the evil alignments but I always saw this more as the province of Neutral Evil (followed by CE as the second most selfish).

Lawful in the sense of organized and having a definite direction as opposed to random and/or simply acting out as opportunity presents itself. A common trait of the LE is extreme paranoia. To the point of mass murdering those under them who appear to be gaining too much power.


Two good historic examples of LE people are Hitler & Stalin. Good examples in that there is a lot of documentation on how they operated.

I'd look over your list again and scrub anything that doesn't really fit. Not lying, for example, should probably not be in there. Real evil is rare as a % of the human population. Most of us never really get to know a person who is truly of "evil alignment". I think that creates the most problems for players trying to RP an evil character. Hard to wrap ones mind around that level of insanity.


Just my take on it though. YMWV

[Lord Dynel]

I really dislike real world examples because the D&D alignment system has a hard time pinning people down to one alignment, or just the opposite - people rarely act within the confines of one alignment.

Interestingly, and focusing strictly on game rules and terminology, many/most entries from a quick Google search shows that not lying is fairly standard of LE alignment. Either not lying outright, or lying to those not worthy of the character's respect. I would theorize that lying is more "anti-lawful" than it is "anti-evil" and while the evil aspect would play a part, it's the lawful aspect that presides here. In fact, according to the d20 SRD (which is the closest thing to "official" D&D I have at the moment), "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties." Good or Evil, this should should hold true, though there might be slight descrepancies or conditions on these, depending on which side of neutrality you fall.

But as you said, YMMV.

[Arduin]

I really dislike real world examples because the D&D alignment system has a hard time pinning people down to one alignment, or just the opposite - people rarely act within the confines of one alignment.

That wasn't really my point. The point was in having players understand Evil. N, L or Chaotic are different approaches to it. But, most players don't actually end up playing evil when they choose it as an alignment. Look at the definition of evil in the PHB...

[Lord Dynel]

I really dislike real world examples because the D&D alignment system has a hard time pinning people down to one alignment, or just the opposite - people rarely act within the confines of one alignment.

That wasn't really my point. The point was in having players understand Evil. N, L or Chaotic are different approaches to it. But, most players don't actually end up playing evil when they choose it as an alignment. Look at the definition of evil in the PHB...

I understand your point, but you first mentioned a specific alignment - LE. I'm of the opinion that applying alignments to real life figures can be a bit blurry sometimes. Now, if you're talking about Evil alone (as your last post mentioned) then I agree that it's much easier to point out real examples. And I know the "broad categorizations" the PHB list for evil - killing, opression, selfishness, etc. - and I think these become more or less pronounced when taking a character's ethics (Law-Chaos disposition) into account. Hitler and Stalin wanted to oppress, which they saw as an instrument of control over others. Ted Bundy, who I also feel is evil (IMHO ), never sought to oppress anyone. They're both evil, but their ethics dictated, to a large degree on how they used the tools of Evil. I think as long as we see where each of us are coming from, it's all good.

My apologies if the recent discussion is dragging the thread off-topic.

[Just Jeff]

6. You shall follow the law.

In general, I like this list, but on this one I would change "the law" to "your law." Would the knight really care about the laws of a heathen city when compared to his god's laws? Likewise the line about criminals, as it would depend on whose laws they've broken.

[Relaxo]

I've only skimmed, but I like LD's first post with the list. One Quibble is for most i'd make it "may" instead of "Shall".

[Arduin]

6. You shall follow the law.

In general, I like this list, but on this one I would change "the law" to "your law." Would the knight really care about the laws of a heathen city when compared to his god's laws? Likewise the line about criminals, as it would depend on whose laws they've broken.

Correct. Hard to be evil when following laws laid down by people of good alignment. A LE will create their own "laws" that are ruthlessly enforced on others but, as they make the law, don't REALLY apply to themselves...

[Lord Dynel]

6. You shall follow the law.

In general, I like this list, but on this one I would change "the law" to "your law." Would the knight really care about the laws of a heathen city when compared to his god's laws? Likewise the line about criminals, as it would depend on whose laws they've broken.

I've only skimmed, but I like LD's first post with the list. One Quibble is for most i'd make it "may" instead of "Shall".

Thanks, fellas! And I agree that some tweaks should be made - a LE character wouldn't necessarily obey the laws of a "good" government, just because he's lawful. It would be his own code of conduct, or in the case of the OP, the knighthood that would take presedence. Maybe No. 6 should say, "You shall follow the rules of [the knighthood] above all others," or something along those lines. Or maybe, "Obey the law of the land, as long as it does not come in conflict with laws laid down by [knighthood, deity, etc]. He wouldn't run around town breaking the established laws - some of those laws protect him, too, and he should be aware of that. But his knighthood, or his god, or whatnot should be where his loyalties lie first, forsaking all others if need be.

As far as the criminals go, I might amend that line to say something like, "You will not aid, under any circumstance, criminals who have broken the laws/rules of [knighthood, deity, etc]." If it were me, or my campaign, I might leave it in there as written - my LE knight character might think that if some criminal breaks the city (or some other establishments) laws, what would prevent him from breaking my knighthood's or god's laws? Something to think about, I reckon. I'd keep the part about not aiding those who protect the weak, though - that's pretty heartless and right up the LE alley!

I believe that a LE person would follow the rules he makes, because those rules are going to be written so that he, himself, will be the one that benefits the most from the law. As long as the law, or society, benefits him, he or she would most likely obey.