Dual Wield Rangers and Combat Maurader

[Lobo316]

If a ranger elects to dual wield, does he apply his combat maurader damage to both attacks, or just the primary attack?

[Lord Dynel]

I'd say it applies to each and every attack. Since the description doesn't specify, I'd say it applies to both weapons. The an example in the description of the ability states "...with each successful hit." Of course, the CK could limit it to one attack per round getting the bonus.

[Omote]

For balancing reasons, I would say this damage bonus only applies to one attack per round. However, does it really matter? When the ranger is 20th level does the bonus to damage of +20 or +40 really matter? The guy is dead.

~O

[Omote]

What you really need to worry about is the rule from the CKG that allows for multiple bow attacks in a melee round. If your buck-suave ranger fires 4 times in a round, look out! This is why I would only let it apply to a single (the first/primary) attack in the round by the ranger.

~O

[Lobo316]

What you really need to worry about is the rule from the CKG that allows for multiple bow attacks in a melee round. If your buck-suave ranger fires 4 times in a round, look out! This is why I would only let it apply to a single (the first/primary) attack in the round by the ranger.

~O

Wow, I dodn't even think about ranged attacks. I assumed Combat Maurader only applies to melee attacks, but I guess the ability really don't state that.

I think I will limit the damage to a single attack per round then. Just seems easiest.

[Arduin]

Wow, I dodn't even think about ranged attacks. I assumed Combat Maurader only applies to melee attacks, but I guess the ability really don't state that.

You were correct. The answer lies in the armour restriction for the ability; "The use of this ability is dependent upon the armor worn. Wearing
armors other than those allowed reduces the ranger’s mobility and swiftness of arm such that he cannot effectively use this ability."

It is not a ranged weapon damage bonus.

[redwullf]

You were correct. The answer lies in the armour restriction for the ability; "The use of this ability is dependent upon the armor worn. Wearing
armors other than those allowed reduces the ranger’s mobility and swiftness of arm such that he cannot effectively use this ability."

It is not a ranged weapon damage bonus.

Why can the subjective concepts of "mobility" and "swiftness of arm" not apply to ranged attacks? A ranger would need both to draw a bow as much as to swing a sword. The ability does not specifically mention that it applies to melee attacks only, or that ranged attacks are excluded. It doesn't even imply it very well, IMO. This sounds like a house rule opportunity to me.

[Arduin]

Why can the concepts of "mobility" and "swiftness of arm" not apply to ranged attacks? A ranger would need both to draw a bow as much as to swing a sword.

They can apply. But, not really relevant to shooting a bow once per round for +20 damage. It matters not how fast you draw a bow as far as damage goes. Or, a crossbow for that matter. It DOES matter how fast you swing a sword... physics

Have you bow hunted?

[Dead Horse]

I dont believe swiftness of arm means melee only.
Seems to be flavor text justifing the Rangers armor restrictions.

'Swiftness of arm' is a general term for how fast the ranger can bring weapons against foes.

[Omote]

You may rule the Combat Marauder ability as you wish. Take this next statement for what it is worth, however: I have played a ranger two seperate times with various Troll folks. They certainly allow the Combat Marauder ability to be used with ranged attacks.

Frankly, I never thought twice about the clarity of the description until now. After giving it some thought, I still hold true that ranged attacks apply to Combat Marauder.

~O

[redwullf]

Why can the concepts of "mobility" and "swiftness of arm" not apply to ranged attacks? A ranger would need both to draw a bow as much as to swing a sword.

They can apply. But, not really relevant to shooting a bow once per round for +20 damage. It matters not how fast you draw a bow as far as damage goes. Or, a crossbow for that matter. It DOES matter how fast you swing a sword... physics

Have you bow hunted?

I have not bow hunted, though I've practiced archery numerous times. I see this as an issue with the armor (mobility) which I believe could significantly hamper any combat activity, from swinging a sword to firing a bow. The physics of being "hampered" still applies - you will simply not be as nimble firing a bow in heavier armor. Hell, just getting an arrow out of the quiver with plate gauntlets on would be interesting to watch.

Consider a modern-day soldier, who in body armor has the advantage of spraying automatic fire, or shooting at close range to offset the bulk and reduced mobility. Compare that to a modern-day sniper, who does not wear body armor because it is too restrictive for their craft (or will wear a light flack jacket at most, as opposed to the heavy body armor worn by infantry units). The only reason we do not carry the restrictive nature of armor to any combat scenario in the game (logically, a Fighter in full plate should be less "accurate" and more likely to become fatigued than a Fighter wearing light or no armor) is for ease of play and the "finesse" nature of the ranger's attack. The same principle applies to the rogue's back attack.

At any rate, physics and "real-world" analysis aside, the simple fact remains that the rule, as written, does not limit this ability to melee attacks. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the rule was intentionally vague. If, in your campaign, you see this as a melee ability only, then house rule away. In my world, because I dig rangers, I'd allow this ability to be used with both melee and ranged attacks but, as previously stated, on only ONE attack in the round -- that would be my house rule on the matter, since the rule itself also makes no such restriction.

[Arduin]

I have not bow hunted, though I've practiced archery numerous times. I see this as an issue with the armor (mobility) which I believe could significantly hamper any combat activity, from swinging a sword to firing a bow. The physics of being "hampered" still applies - you will simply not be as nimble firing a bow in heavier armor.

Not to that degree. And, for a cross bow, not there. In fact, the ability to stay still is what is required for accuracy. As to ROF, a fighter in full plate suffers no ROF penalty. I apply the same logic to this as what is applied to the bonus damage from a rogues back stab ability. Both rely on extreme accuracy and knowledge of anatomy.

I'm just keeping it consistent with logic and other, similar class abilities. Nothing wrong with using it with ranged weapons though. Just doesn't work for me & my players.

[serleran]

Sure. But, the damage is halved, quartered, thirded, whatever amongst all the attacks as the ability applies to "attacks" not a single specific one. Note, this means that, if you miss, you lose out on damage... so, choose carefully.

[Lord Dynel]

Back Attack specifically states that it is a melee attack and it also specifically states that it is affected by armor worn. Sneak Attack is an adapted Back Attack that it specifically states that ranged weapons can be used instead of a melee weapon, at a range of 30 feet. It also states that armor affects the Sneak Attack. These are cases where the rules state what can and cannot be used.

The fact is there are no such limitations on Combat Maurader. It can be used in any weapon attack scenario - ranged or melee. If there were restrictions on ranged weapon use, it would stand to reason that it would state that in the ability like it does in the above example. I don't mean to sound like an ass but I can't understand how things like this cause confusion. I guess I can see, but all one has to do is look in the book for another example and a prescedent is usually available.

In the end, as Arduin did say, it comes down to what works in our own games. He decided to house rule it to have Combat Maurader to not affect ranged attacks and that's all well and good...that's the power of the CK!

[Arduin]

Back Attack specifically states that it is a melee attack

Um, that's my point.

[Lord Dynel]

Back Attack specifically states that it is a melee attack

Um, that's my point.

What is? That you think Combat Maurader should be only a melee bonus, but it's not specifically stated so? Whether you think it should be melee only is entirely your opinion, which you are certainly entitled to. I would think that my post you quoted would be your counterpoint - Back Attack specifically states it's a melee attack...Combat Maurader does not state such a restriction.

[gideon_thorne]

I personally have no problem applying the damage to each attack. I expect that people think that players love to be in my game. But my rule of 'the bad guys get it too', tends to dampen the enthusiasm.

[Sir Ironside]

Have you bow hunted?

No I've never bow hunted, but I also have never bow hunted with a hero either.

[GameOgre]

Well let me finish all this disagreement with some 100% pure fact!

I have both hunted with a bow and Hunted with a sword. I am a elf so I'm not too sure this would apply to humans but at least with Elves(and we had a Halfling along as well who did many of the same things but unfortunately he stayed drunk off his arse most of the time so isn't really good to use in this Fact finding example).

I am a fighter by class but my brother is a Ranger and when hunting/fighting against a wild Dragon in the upper reaches(we think,we did get a little lost after my brother drank about 3/4 of the Rotgut Furd the Halfling had brought along) he used his Combat Marauder ability each and every shot! (He has one of those new Gnome time keeper 2,000 and it keeps track of time all the way down to the round to!).

Now he will not be too happy with me telling you guys this but Combat Marauder has a downside. See by the end of the day we had finished off the rotgut and even Furd's Own Blend(no idea what it was but DAMN). My aim went to hell and my brother's was even worse. We tracked the wounded and dying dragon up over a ledge and well,things got a little hazy.

It seems Combat Marauder even adds if you miss the target and well, hit a drunk Halfling as he stumbles down the hill yelling "Come er little buggerdragon".

Took us half a hour just to pull the shaft out and and let me tell you it hit bone!


So there ya go! matter settled. No other explanation!






Ok,I did think of another explanation but my brother swears he didn't pick halfling as a special enemy.