One Step forward, Two Steps Back

[nightstorm]

So for a while I stopped playing C&C. I will not go into the reasons here. That has been posted elsewhere.
But then I found out that The Trolls put the core books on Kindle and seeing a progressive step like that got me
to want and support them again. Besides I'm finding more and more people who like the old D&D better.
Heck I even bought the Classic Monsters book seeing the whole thing as a positive way to make books (though I
think going print on demand would be better).
SO as I have a Kindle that is joined my hip, I bought the kindle version. One step forward.
BUT,
man, where to start? I guess I should be glad that at least there is a rudimentary index to the kindle book. But I swear to God
who's idea was it not to index the classes, races and esp the spells????? I'm serious. I want to know who's responsible for it. By not indexing these things why am I buying it ? When I'm at the table how am I suppose to go to a certain part? And don't say "Just bookmark it" because it's not nearly as good or faster to do it that way.
Time and time again this group drops the ball. I find it so strange that the Player's Handbook and Monsters and Treasures Hardback came out so good and just about everything else comes out .. lacking.
PLEASE tell me that an updated version will come out soon. This is just not acceptable. Two steps back.

[Arduin]

Thanks for the info. I always get lots of gift cards for Barnes & Noble at x-mas. I have a nook. I was wondering how the indexing was, given that for this type of book, it is pretty much a must if using on an e-reader...


Maybe I'll edit my PDF versions with full indexing and try to convert to epub. Formatting will be a pain though.

[nightstorm]

To be honest, the pdf works better on the kindle then the kindle book.
It just really makes me mad and frustrated at the same time.
I've bought the Hardback, Pdf and now Kindle book. That's around $50
and is it too much to ask for a full index?
BTW, another thing to point out is that at least in the preview download (not certain what it's like in the full one)
the monster manual has NO pictures.

[redwullf]

Well, Nightstorm, I'll say my position on the matter isn't as strong as yours because I use hardbacks at the table. My electronic copies are more for recreational perusal or when I'm preparing as the GM.

Having said that, I do agree that a PDF and (especially) an eBook for any game/reference book should have a strong index - a way to quickly move to the part of the book you need. And, I also agree that the kindle version is lacking heavily in this regard. Though there's a table of contents, it's unclear what some of the links are supposed to be, and it certainly doesn't cover all of the key sections of the book someone would need to jump to. I've taken quite some time to go through and bookmark my own sections, but someone who purchased a new copy shouldn't have to do that.

Long story short, I get where you're coming from, and agree, but I don't share in the ire at the Trolls. They're a small outfit and their products are a great addition to a small but passionate subset of the table-top RPG community. Plus, they seem receptive to feedback and I feel confident the eProducts will improve over time because of it.

[finarvyn]

I don't share in the ire at the Trolls. They're a small outfit and their products are a great addition to a small but passionate subset of the table-top RPG community. Plus, they seem receptive to feedback and I feel confident the eProducts will improve over time because of it.

I think this is a valuable point. While some RPG companies have full-time staff handling many of these issues, TLG is a very small group trying to keep up with the big boys. For the size of the company, I think they turn out quite a lot of product and I think pretty good quality (even though folks often critisize them for proofreading issues). Every time I've had a problem they try to make it right. I think they may be a little behind with electronic products but am sure they will try to fix the issue as soon as they can.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I don't share in the ire at the Trolls. They're a small outfit and their products are a great addition to a small but passionate subset of the table-top RPG community. Plus, they seem receptive to feedback and I feel confident the eProducts will improve over time because of it.

I think this is a valuable point. While some RPG companies have full-time staff handling many of these issues, TLG is a very small group trying to keep up with the big boys. For the size of the company, I think they turn out quite a lot of product and I think pretty good quality (even though folks often critisize them for proofreading issues). Every time I've had a problem they try to make it right. I think they may be a little behind with electronic products but am sure they will try to fix the issue as soon as they can.

+1 to both of these points. As with anything, there's a learning curve. As the Trolls have figured out kinks, they've released an updated version to include the ToC. If it's something I really want, I bookmark it. Yes, I understand that I'm paying for the product, but the beauty of the eBook (Kindle, Nook or whatever) is that I can bookmark it however the h-e-double-hockey-sticks I want to. I'm not all that bothered by any perceived problem (the proofreading issue, for example) when I know I'm buying a game that does what I want it to do. Maybe I'm just getting old.

[Arduin]

+1 to both of these points. As with anything, there's a learning curve. As the Trolls have figured out kinks, they've released an updated version to include the ToC. If it's something I really want, I bookmark it. Yes, I understand that I'm paying for the product, but the beauty of the eBook (Kindle, Nook or whatever) is that I can bookmark it however the h-e-double-hockey-sticks I want to. I'm not all that bothered by any perceived problem (the proofreading issue, for example) when I know I'm buying a game that does what I want it to do. Maybe I'm just getting old.

I think with products that one can't view before buying, full and complete product descriptions need to be written up by the company. This way, a person knows exactly what they are buying. Business 100.

[nightstorm]

The problem with bookmarking is that it marks whatever is on the page. So if you mark the page with say one class and it's talking about the class before it, the book mark will be different and you have to remember what it means. Where as if it was just indexed, when I click on wizard I would go right to wizard with no guessing.
As for not faulting them, I understand the problems they may be having but in the end the final product is the final product. No matter what I buy I expect it to perform to a certain level. That's like saying "Well that plumber is nice guy. I wanted copper pipes but he only had plastic. That's ok I'll just settle for plastic. Meanwhile another plumber keeps coming around your house asking if he can fix your pipes- and his pipes are gold platted ( or whatever). Owning a Biz of your own means that you have to step up because there's five others able to do it better.

BTW I think I need to be clear on what needs to be fixed on this particular ebook.
1. ALL of the art from the original should be in it. A lot is missing (off the top of my head is the assassin and barbarian).
2. All Races, Classes and spells need to be indexed individually.
3. Right now the "Abilities" is listed four times each going to a class'es abilities. All find and good, just not to every single class.
4. The section on multiclassing needs to be indexed.

[Troll Lord]

The problem with bookmarking is that it marks whatever is on the page. So if you mark the page with say one class and it's talking about the class before it, the book mark will be different and you have to remember what it means. Where as if it was just indexed, when I click on wizard I would go right to wizard with no guessing.
As for not faulting them, I understand the problems they may be having but in the end the final product is the final product. No matter what I buy I expect it to perform to a certain level. That's like saying "Well that plumber is nice guy. I wanted copper pipes but he only had plastic. That's ok I'll just settle for plastic. Meanwhile another plumber keeps coming around your house asking if he can fix your pipes- and his pipes are gold platted ( or whatever). Owning a Biz of your own means that you have to step up because there's five others able to do it better.

BTW I think I need to be clear on what needs to be fixed on this particular ebook.
1. ALL of the art from the original should be in it. A lot is missing (off the top of my head is the assassin and barbarian).
2. All Races, Classes and spells need to be indexed individually.
3. Right now the "Abilities" is listed four times each going to a class'es abilities. All find and good, just not to every single class.
4. The section on multiclassing needs to be indexed.

I appreciate your commentary.

As this books gets updated we'll make those updates available to consumers who have already purchased the book.

Thanks,
Seve

[nightstorm]

The problem with bookmarking is that it marks whatever is on the page. So if you mark the page with say one class and it's talking about the class before it, the book mark will be different and you have to remember what it means. Where as if it was just indexed, when I click on wizard I would go right to wizard with no guessing.
As for not faulting them, I understand the problems they may be having but in the end the final product is the final product. No matter what I buy I expect it to perform to a certain level. That's like saying "Well that plumber is nice guy. I wanted copper pipes but he only had plastic. That's ok I'll just settle for plastic. Meanwhile another plumber keeps coming around your house asking if he can fix your pipes- and his pipes are gold platted ( or whatever). Owning a Biz of your own means that you have to step up because there's five others able to do it better.

BTW I think I need to be clear on what needs to be fixed on this particular ebook.
1. ALL of the art from the original should be in it. A lot is missing (off the top of my head is the assassin and barbarian).
2. All Races, Classes and spells need to be indexed individually.
3. Right now the "Abilities" is listed four times each going to a class'es abilities. All find and good, just not to every single class.
4. The section on multiclassing needs to be indexed.

I appreciate your commentary.

As this books gets updated we'll make those updates available to consumers who have already purchased the book.

Thanks,
Seve

I appreciate that. Now get to work on fixing the Monsters and treasures so I can buy it