So I'm about to run the first session of my C&C Forgotten Realms game. I've picked it all up pretty quickly as it is all familiar enough, but I'm hung up on a few small things:
1. Class abilities: For example, the assassin gets disguise and move silently, to name a few. I understand how to handle these with an assassin, but what if a wizard wants to attempt them? How should I handle that? Can any class attempt ANY of the other classes abilities they just don't get to add their level?
2. On the character sheet the box next to weapon is the BTH box, but it says BTH/Dmg. What is the "Dmg." part? I would assume damage for the weapon but there is a damage box right next to it.
3. Armor dosen't seem to have any penalties no matter how heavy it gets. Is this true?
4. I'l be using my 2e MM for awhile in the beginning. Other than inverting AC, is there anything I should be aware of?
5. Combat actions are (as usual): Attack, Cast Spell, Move, Use Ability, or Use Item. It dosen't seem to state but I'm assuming I still can't attack and use an item, or use an item and cast a spell etc? Should I think of it in terms of Major, minor, and free action?
6. It's strange that you can only move 1/2 speed if you attack. We'll see.
Thanks!
First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
The key thing is to understand how the SIEGE engine works. Once you and the players are on board with that, it should be easy peasy
On encroaching on class abilities, like much of C&C, the choice is up to the DM. It depends how much of an archetypey game you want to have. Here is a previous discussion about wizards trying to sneak, showing various viewpoints. It is a question that comes up a fair amount.
You cannot cast/attack and use an item. I find the 3e distinction between a move action and a standard action handles this fairly well.
I am not sure if the 2E monsters would be exactly the same power level as the C&C versions. I know they got a boost from their 1e counterparts. I certainly do not think it would be a big deal, but be prepared to tweak a little on the fly. Also, some spell effects are a bit different in C&C, so that might need to be monitored.
One of the many strengths of C&C is it works well with everything from Basic to 3.5 so feel free to use whatever catches your fancy
Also, keep in mind one important difference with C&C compared to other games is the way primes work means that magic is very powerful vs opponents who are not prime in the relevant attribute. Your players will learn very quickly that certain spells tend to work well against certain classes (or creatures). This is both a blessing to PCs and a danger!
One key thing to really understand is how much the unified mechanic of SIEGE frees up a lot of the game. Players might initially wish for a character build which tells them what level of power they have in which skill, and which feats they have and so on. If you can encourage them to just try whatever general skill or feat they wish (while not encroaching on the archetypes, as noted above
) I think you and your players will find that the game is quite fluid and fun.
On encroaching on class abilities, like much of C&C, the choice is up to the DM. It depends how much of an archetypey game you want to have. Here is a previous discussion about wizards trying to sneak, showing various viewpoints. It is a question that comes up a fair amount.
You cannot cast/attack and use an item. I find the 3e distinction between a move action and a standard action handles this fairly well.
I am not sure if the 2E monsters would be exactly the same power level as the C&C versions. I know they got a boost from their 1e counterparts. I certainly do not think it would be a big deal, but be prepared to tweak a little on the fly. Also, some spell effects are a bit different in C&C, so that might need to be monitored.
One of the many strengths of C&C is it works well with everything from Basic to 3.5 so feel free to use whatever catches your fancy
Also, keep in mind one important difference with C&C compared to other games is the way primes work means that magic is very powerful vs opponents who are not prime in the relevant attribute. Your players will learn very quickly that certain spells tend to work well against certain classes (or creatures). This is both a blessing to PCs and a danger!
One key thing to really understand is how much the unified mechanic of SIEGE frees up a lot of the game. Players might initially wish for a character build which tells them what level of power they have in which skill, and which feats they have and so on. If you can encourage them to just try whatever general skill or feat they wish (while not encroaching on the archetypes, as noted above
) I think you and your players will find that the game is quite fluid and fun.Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
1- Depending on how you want to handle this, whether non-trained character can attempt skills from other classes, then with the SIEGE engine, the wizard can attempt a disguise, since it is a Cha based skill, if they character has Cha as a prime, then they get that check at a 12, if not then 18. The difference here is the assassin gets to add it's level, the wizard does not.
2- The DMG I would assume in the bonus to damage, thus a 1st level fighter with a 16 str and 14 Dexwould have a BTH of +3 (+1 level, +2 Str) and Damage Bonus of +2, while with a Bow it would have a BTH of +2 (+1 level, +1 Dex) and a DMG of 0.
3- Yes it does, review the Encumbrance rules on pages 47-48, armor has an EV value like everything else, while it is worn, it counts as 1/2 EV (round down). But it does not restrict combat rolls, or other checks with the exception of helms which can reduce your line of site. This is part of the restrictions of armor by the classes, showing that some skills are not easily performed with heavier, clunkier armors, and the lack of time spent training with such.
4- Aramis summed this up pretty well, I haven't gone to far with contrasting the MM with M&T such as # of attacks, damage, etc., but some things you will need to determine will be the primes for each monster, and HD modifications. In M&T they are listed with either Physical (Str, Dex, Con) or Mental primes (Int, Wis, Cha) with a monster normally only having one or the other (for three effective primes), though some powerful creatures have both meaning all attributes are considered to be prime. M&T has monsters not only have differing HD counts (1HD, 2HD, 5HD, etc.) but also using different HD types, Goblins 1(d6), Orcs 1(d8), Purple Worm 15(d10).
5- You only get one action per round, the exception to this is the ability to make 1/2 your normal move and still attack. Though there is a Charge action as described on page 130.
6- This is standard, in most RPG's that allow 2 actions/round counts movement as a 1/2 action for 1/2 your normal move distance, thus you could move your full distance by spending 2 move actions and if running (other than a charge) it counts as both actions as well.
2- The DMG I would assume in the bonus to damage, thus a 1st level fighter with a 16 str and 14 Dexwould have a BTH of +3 (+1 level, +2 Str) and Damage Bonus of +2, while with a Bow it would have a BTH of +2 (+1 level, +1 Dex) and a DMG of 0.
3- Yes it does, review the Encumbrance rules on pages 47-48, armor has an EV value like everything else, while it is worn, it counts as 1/2 EV (round down). But it does not restrict combat rolls, or other checks with the exception of helms which can reduce your line of site. This is part of the restrictions of armor by the classes, showing that some skills are not easily performed with heavier, clunkier armors, and the lack of time spent training with such.
4- Aramis summed this up pretty well, I haven't gone to far with contrasting the MM with M&T such as # of attacks, damage, etc., but some things you will need to determine will be the primes for each monster, and HD modifications. In M&T they are listed with either Physical (Str, Dex, Con) or Mental primes (Int, Wis, Cha) with a monster normally only having one or the other (for three effective primes), though some powerful creatures have both meaning all attributes are considered to be prime. M&T has monsters not only have differing HD counts (1HD, 2HD, 5HD, etc.) but also using different HD types, Goblins 1(d6), Orcs 1(d8), Purple Worm 15(d10).
5- You only get one action per round, the exception to this is the ability to make 1/2 your normal move and still attack. Though there is a Charge action as described on page 130.
6- This is standard, in most RPG's that allow 2 actions/round counts movement as a 1/2 action for 1/2 your normal move distance, thus you could move your full distance by spending 2 move actions and if running (other than a charge) it counts as both actions as well.
Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
Great! You guys summed up everything pretty well, although I am still a little unsure of actions per round. I feel like it's the same as 3e but something tells me it's a little more restricted. I'll have to reread the movement stuff.
Another thing, I'm having trouble seeing how it's easier to go mini-less in C&C than in other games. It still uses the cut and dry 20/30ft movement for characters. How is that easy to keep track of without totally butchering? I'm of the opinion that exact positioning isn't needed, but have always liked a pretty good idea so that spells/actions/etc for everybody feels fair. I've used miniatures in both 2e and 3e and will probably do so in C&C just because we like them on the table, but would like to cut it down a bit. Thoughts?
Thanks again
Another thing, I'm having trouble seeing how it's easier to go mini-less in C&C than in other games. It still uses the cut and dry 20/30ft movement for characters. How is that easy to keep track of without totally butchering? I'm of the opinion that exact positioning isn't needed, but have always liked a pretty good idea so that spells/actions/etc for everybody feels fair. I've used miniatures in both 2e and 3e and will probably do so in C&C just because we like them on the table, but would like to cut it down a bit. Thoughts?
Thanks again
-
alcyone
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 2727
- Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:00 am
- Location: The Court of the Crimson King
Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
C&C is easier to go mini-less because the rules don't assume a tactical grid or rigid action categories. If you like minis, keep using them. Decide before you play how you want flanking, back attacks, withdrawals, and retreats to work, if at all. If your players come from 3.5 they may get confused. Also, decide what "in melee" means, as withdrawal depends on it. It's helpful to reserve the right out loud to rule "opportunity attacks" situationally rather than relying on specific maneuvers to trigger them; just make sure monsters can do whatever players can.
Decide before you play on how you want spell interruption to work and if you will require pre-declaration of casting.
When in doubt about how much someone can do in a round, just think about how long a round is and make a ruling based on that, but the general baseline is you can move, cast, attack, charge, or move-half-and-attack. There are lots of occasions that arise where someone will do more than one thing in a round. You can usually let them. Decide whether there will be penalties for running or jogging.
It's fine to be too permissive, just make sure you've made it clear you'll violate precedent if your decisions are taken advantage of.
Decide before you play on how you want spell interruption to work and if you will require pre-declaration of casting.
When in doubt about how much someone can do in a round, just think about how long a round is and make a ruling based on that, but the general baseline is you can move, cast, attack, charge, or move-half-and-attack. There are lots of occasions that arise where someone will do more than one thing in a round. You can usually let them. Decide whether there will be penalties for running or jogging.
It's fine to be too permissive, just make sure you've made it clear you'll violate precedent if your decisions are taken advantage of.
My C&C stuff: www.rpggrognard.com
Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
In the long view on SIEGE checks, Roguish PC climb levels higher. By third or fourth level, they will start do better than non-thief types and by 5th level outshine the amateurs.
My own house rule is that the class in question has to be in the party. For example, life goes easier in the party when they need to track something in the woods and the druid can add his levels to the check because there's no Ranger around.
My own house rule is that the class in question has to be in the party. For example, life goes easier in the party when they need to track something in the woods and the druid can add his levels to the check because there's no Ranger around.
Re: First game next week: Help me with rules clarifications!
Don't look at it as more restrictive, it really is more open since you can attempt just about anything. You really only get a single "action", attack, move/attack, cast, etc., but the listed actions are not the only things players (or NPCs) can do; as was stated, use common sense when adjudicating if something can be accomplished in the time allotted.
As for making the game easier to play without minis, that is really based on the way the rules are designed for 4E, and to a great extent for 3.xE. Those systems present things much more tactically, much more in the way of a tabletop miniatures skirmish/war game as opposed to a ROLE playing game. C&C brings us back to the original methods of play, gone are the strict definitions of moving x number of squares, facing, needing to be on the exact opposite side of a defender to get a backstab, etc. Now common sense comes back to the game, and you can describe the actions of your characters to get into those positions, understanding that in combat you can't calculate to the inch if something is in range by counting squares, or look quickly to know that if you throw a fireball into the room it won't have a blow back because the template will fit neatly inside the area. (In the Deathwatch game I run I had an Apothecary use a heavy flamer in a confined area, he didn't like the blow back effect, muahahaha.)
So, while mini's are a great addition to a game, most props are, C&C is easier to play without them since the rules are abstract enough, and leave even more to imagination than many other systems with strict rules dictating how things must be done.
Personally, I love using mini's and battle maps (preferably without grids), or even many of the new paper modeling items you can get, like Fat Dragon Games (great ties with C&C for them), or World Works Games, among many others. There are even many free resources you can get for buildings, walls, etc. There are also many purchasable and free resources for cardstock mini's if you don't have actual miniatures for use.
As for making the game easier to play without minis, that is really based on the way the rules are designed for 4E, and to a great extent for 3.xE. Those systems present things much more tactically, much more in the way of a tabletop miniatures skirmish/war game as opposed to a ROLE playing game. C&C brings us back to the original methods of play, gone are the strict definitions of moving x number of squares, facing, needing to be on the exact opposite side of a defender to get a backstab, etc. Now common sense comes back to the game, and you can describe the actions of your characters to get into those positions, understanding that in combat you can't calculate to the inch if something is in range by counting squares, or look quickly to know that if you throw a fireball into the room it won't have a blow back because the template will fit neatly inside the area. (In the Deathwatch game I run I had an Apothecary use a heavy flamer in a confined area, he didn't like the blow back effect, muahahaha.)
So, while mini's are a great addition to a game, most props are, C&C is easier to play without them since the rules are abstract enough, and leave even more to imagination than many other systems with strict rules dictating how things must be done.
Personally, I love using mini's and battle maps (preferably without grids), or even many of the new paper modeling items you can get, like Fat Dragon Games (great ties with C&C for them), or World Works Games, among many others. There are even many free resources you can get for buildings, walls, etc. There are also many purchasable and free resources for cardstock mini's if you don't have actual miniatures for use.