Rangers (& maybe monks or barbarians) Vs Surprise

[kajukenbo]

I am sure this has been covered before but I could not find an obvious reference.

How does everyone handle the quirk that Level 1 Clerics may be as good or better than some Rangers at detecting Surprise, since it is a WIS check.
I have ruled that Rangers get to add their DEX to the roll but that does not average out very well.

I have the PHB (4th Crusade) and it still says Surprise is a WIS check.
There is no extra notation for the idea that other classes might be better at it.

Thanks

[Arduin]

I am sure this has been covered before but I could not find an obvious reference.

How does everyone handle the quirk that Level 1 Clerics may be as good or better than some Rangers at detecting Surprise, since it is a WIS check.

I've done nothing. I don't see a problem with it. The lower the levels, the closer PC's are to each other. The higher the level the more areas class of expertise become pronounced.

[kajukenbo]

The concern I have is that nowhere in the rules -that I have seen- does it say a Ranger gets ANY sort of bonus, no adding Levels, nothing about adding DEX...

So if a Ranger is a STR Prime and a Cleric is a WIS Prime then when / how does a Ranger EVER become better at detecting Surprise than a Cleric?

[alcyone]

Primes are a precious resource. If you want your ranger to never be surprised, you have 1 or 2 primes you can apply to Wisdom. I don't hold with those who say that your primes should cover all of the attributes your abilities are based upon; the tradeoffs are what make things interesting. When I design a human, I often use the 3rd prime to shore up something that I don't and never will have a decent bonus for.

As far as the strangeness of the cleric being better with surprise, it's not the cleric's fault; leave him out of it. Besides, they have all sorts of keen divination spells, why not let them have this early warning.

There might be better ways to handle surprise, though. You could put the burden on the surpriser; they need to effectively hide or move silently depending on if it's an ambush or just sneaking up on the party. Or you could divorce surprise from party skill entirely and do more of the old 1-2 on d6 if there is a chance surprise might take place, 1 for rangers, and percentile surprise for monk (33, 32, 30, 28...) at each level as AD&D did.

Seems the simplest thing to do, though, is always use a prime challenge base for monks and rangers rolling surprise.

[kajukenbo]

Primes are a precious resource. If you want your ranger to never be surprised, you have 1 or 2 primes you can apply to Wisdom.

Hello.

I actually did put a Prime in WIS, that is not the problem.
I guess I just have a disconnect with the general of a Cleric being harder to surprise than average.
I cannot leave the Cleric out of it - the Cleric is the symptom of the problem.
Practicing tuning things out (while praying or meditating) is not the way for someone to develop an "early warning system."

I think putting the "burden on the surpriser" makes a bit more sense.
I'll think about it a bit.

Thanks

[Arduin]

The concern I have is that nowhere in the rules -that I have seen- does it say a Ranger gets ANY sort of bonus, no adding Levels, nothing about adding DEX...

So if a Ranger is a STR Prime and a Cleric is a WIS Prime then when / how does a Ranger EVER become better at detecting Surprise than a Cleric?

If a ranger doesn't doesn't choose that path he doesn't. That is the purpose of having Primes. A player has choices to make when they create the PC as what type of Ranger they want. Every PC isn't good at everything. The only players that will be a problem with are munchkins. Playing a human means that the PC is more flexible in exchange for not hsving other racial advantages.

[kajukenbo]

I guess have a problem with the view that a Ranger might not choose that path.
The Rangers I work with are trained to be sneaky and surprise people.

And again, why would praying make one harder to surprise?
Unless a CK wants to rule that a patron is giving their spidey sense a nudge then there is no reason for it.

Oh well.

Maybe a 5th Crusade PHB can clarify this.
In the wild, this seems to be one of the biggest complaints people have about the SIEGE Engine.

[Omote]

If you consider this a problem, simply add a special ability to the Ranger class.

Add +1 the Ranger's surprise rolls at every odd level of experience. +1 at level onem +2 at level three, +3 at level five, etc.

~O

[Arduin]

The Rangers I work with are trained to be sneaky and surprise people.

Well, if someone is moving quietly, they have a better chance of surprising someone. A ranger moving or hiding has more chances to surprise than a cleric clanking around. I'm not seeing how a cleric would be as good. Who is the GM in your game?

[Lord Dynel]

kajukenbo, I know exactly what you mean. I too have an issue with surprise - something everyone should have (more or less) equal footing on (with a few exceptions) that shouldn't be tied to a specific attribute. I say that last part half-heartedly, because part of me feels that wisdom should play a part, but I'm not sold on the prime/non-prime aspect of it. It does, indeed, make things like clerics being always better at surprising than others, which makes little sense to me.

To remedy this, I've adopted the 2nd Edition AD&D rules for surprise. It's a d10 based roll, and surprise occurs on a 1-3 (excpet for rangers, which is 1-2), and one or both sides roll, depending on who is going to be surprised. There are modifiers for both sides, too, depending on conditions. I don't know if you're familiar with these rules or not, kaju, but they might be worth looking into. I use them now and they work fantastically but your milage may vary. To me, it takes care of the issues I had with tying surprise to the SIEGE system.

[Arduin]

I think part of the problem is rolling for surprise without justification. Unless there is a very good environmental reason, I just use initiative. Other wise I let "recon" types use class skill rolls to detect the potential surprise. For Rouges this usually a listen check or, if in a non-wilderness setting I will sometimes allow them a Hide check to find potential ambush areas for an enemy. For Rangers, a Conceal check to detect enemy cammo & ambush locations. If they fail, their reactions aren't any better than other martial classes (all else being equal).

[kajukenbo]

I'm not seeing how a cleric would be as good. Who is the GM in your game?

That is my point.

If you play the RAW, the Cleric is not just "as good" as a Ranger at detecting surprise, but often better.

At least, that is the way I read it.
Based on replies here, I get the impression that I am not the only one reading it this way.

[serleran]

I use 1d12. Every character has a X:12 chance based on race, class, and their actions. Opponent actions may reduce the chance.

A ranger, for example, has a base of 4:12. A half-elf ranger has a 5:12. Wisdom gives +/-1:12 / modifier. Actively searching gives a +3. Wisdom Prime gives +3. You cannot ever have 12:12 unless there is no chance you could miss it.

[Arduin]

I'm not seeing how a cleric would be as good. Who is the GM in your game?

That is my point.

If you play the RAW, the Cleric is not just "as good" as a Ranger at detecting surprise, but often better.

At least, that is the way I read it.
Based on replies here, I get the impression that I am not the only one reading it this way.

You're correct. However I'd posit that it needs to be broken up as surprise is an instantaneous happening. (You are in a dungeon and POOF, a monster teleports in to attack) You roll wis check to to see if you are adversely effected and are "stunned" by the sudden appearance (lose a round of action) as there is no way to "detect surprise" The surprise roll is late on the chain perhaps.

Just a thought...

[TheMetal1]

Ok, I'm not following this, so please help me out here. Is this what your saying?

A Cleric's Prime Atribute is Wisdom. A Ranger's Prime Attribute is Strength.

Therefore a Cleric is inherently "better" at detecting suprise than a Ranger.

Because - all other things being equal - suprise requires a Wisdom Check and the Cleric starts out at a base 12 instead of a base 18 like the Ranger.

I don't have any issue with this, because it is about detecting an ambush - not setting up one. That I think is the biggest difference and where the ranger excels at. The Ranger gets Conceal and Move Silently abilities, which allows them to get the drop on someone else - Both of those are DEX based abilties.

Reacting is just that, so a Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian or anyone else with higher Wisdom might react quicker to being suprised, but a Ranger in the wood setting up an ambush on a group of Orcs or Gobbos, no one will do it better.

[Lord Dynel]

I agree, Metal. I think a lot of the issue comes down to "straight mechanics" or whatever you want to call them. Mechanically speaking, the cleric would be the surprise detecting monster (since a surprise check is a Wisdom check). I'm guilty of following the mechanics over common sense sometimes. In those cases, I change the mechanics so they make more sense. Which is why I use the 2e AD&D rules for surprise. And I've never been fond of the ranger's prime, so that doesn't help matters much, either.

[Demiurge]

To remedy this, I've adopted the 2nd Edition AD&D rules for surprise. It's a d10 based roll, and surprise occurs on a 1-3 (excpet for rangers, which is 1-2), and one or both sides roll, depending on who is going to be surprised. There are modifiers for both sides, too, depending on conditions. I don't know if you're familiar with these rules or not, kaju, but they might be worth looking into. I use them now and they work fantastically but your milage may vary. To me, it takes care of the issues I had with tying surprise to the SIEGE system.

Based on your post I went back and read the 2e surprise rules and I think this solves my dilemma with surprise as well. Do you give bonuses for high DEX and/or DEX prime as well?

[shadowspawn]

The ranger is the only class that needs to be reworked in my opinion. He's too much like a fighter/thief. I'd say to fix the surprise problem just give him/her a Prime base roll for all Surprise with an additional +1. I'd also give them some of the basic Druid spells (< 4th level) for animals and plants at higher level. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't. I liked how in AD&D they started with 2d8. I think I'd go back to that and make DEX their Prime. I'd also consider letting them have their humanoid attack bonus on ranged weapons like the bow and they shouldn't be able to wear any kind of plate armor.