level advancement rules.

[mmtbb]

I tried searching this topic twice but it only resulted in 2 timeouts and 2 white screen. I guess my computer doesn't work well with the forum search.
Anyway, after reading both players handbook and ckg I would like to know your ideas on level advancement. For those of you who use xps, do you use any formulas or written guidelines to know how much xps and treasure you should give out per level? In D&D 3.x they suggest leveling a character every 13 encounters with at least 3-4 encounters per session. Of course, they are on a universal experience table unlike C&C. Your thoughts are appreciated.

[tylermo]

I've been awarding experience at the end of full-length adventures such as A0 The Rising Knight. Should I be handing it out a little at a time throughout each 25-30 page module instead?

[alcyone]

For those of you who use xps, do you use any formulas or written guidelines to know how much xps and treasure you should give out per level?

I don't understand the per level part; you give out enough to make them gain a level per level. Or do you mean dungeon level?

I run a lot of published modules where the level range is given, and if the modules are in a series, I try to make sure they have enough to tackle the next module in the series. For that reason I usually do a spreadsheet with all of the sources of XP and make sure that divided between them, if they follow the happy path they'll be pretty close, and if they explore everything they get a little extra.

If I am doing my own stuff I try to make a complete 'thing' be enough for a level, so maybe doing one dungeon level will have enough treasure and xp for a level, or one stage of a quest. Part of it is watching the players though; of course they all want to be level 20, but if they are really bummed out about where they are and have been exploring and slaying like they are supposed to, some fudging is in order.

[alcyone]

I've been awarding experience at the end of full-length adventures such as A0 The Rising Knight. Should I be handing it out a little at a time throughout each 25-30 page module instead?

I like to give it out when there is a good stopping point during the adventure, especially if the big bad evil guy at the end is obviously for a higher level group than the one that started the module. If they aren't actually going to level from it, then it just depends on how big a deal XP is to the players sense of progress, usually the story is enough.

Since I usually chart out encounters, I pretty much know where some of the characters will level in the next sessions, and announced the leveling where it happens; usually no one in my group wants to track XP themselves.

[Sir Ironside]

I guess I'm just old fashion. I give XP on merit, not some predetermined time. If there is a group effort then XP gets split. If one character achieves something, on their own, they are the only one who gets XP and everything in the middle. I'll be honest I have never even considered doing it any other way. It seems to encourage my players to do more than just kill monsters and collect treasure, knowing they will be rewarded for good role playing.

[mgtremaine]

I tried searching this topic twice but it only resulted in 2 timeouts and 2 white screen. I guess my computer doesn't work well with the forum search.

Use google to search the forums the forum search, well sucks, but google can save you.

Just do "site://www.trolllord.com/forums/ <keywords>"

Anyway, after reading both players handbook and ckg I would like to know your ideas on level advancement. For those of you who use xps, do you use any formulas or written guidelines to know how much xps and treasure you should give out per level? In D&D 3.x they suggest leveling a character every 13 encounters with at least 3-4 encounters per session. Of course, they are on a universal experience table unlike C&C. Your thoughts are appreciated.

No formulas, it all comes done to game pacing. What are you running and what's their goal. If you have some great story arc that requires the PC's to be a certain level then for sure you better figure out about how many levels they need per session, I've heard a lot of people say 1 level per 3-5 sessions before. If it is pure sandbox then the book values work fine.

-Mike

[kajukenbo]

I have to agree with mgtremaine & Sir Ironside here.
While I have more "experience" (HA!) in other game systems, I never tried to calculate XP breaks or set predetermined points for PCs to gain a level.
When we took a break (which usually meant the PCs were "setting up camp" and we were going home for the day) I handed out XP.
Sometimes, if I think someone is close, I will do a quick tally if they make camp (in game) to recover spells, etc.

It almost sounds like you are thinking in terms of some of the campaigns where completing a module guarantees a level bump. That is not how I do it outside of those campaigns.
There is little incentive for role-playing in many of those cases.

I will give about as much XP for good role-playing in an encounter as I do for the "kill", so it is hard to "calculate" when someone should or would advance.
I cannot predict the level of role-playing vs. roll-playing.

[Omote]

Character classes advance at different rates on purpose. The rogue needs to be a few levels higher then the rest of the 10th level party to balance the class out.

It would be very difficult to calculate the number of XP that should be awarded per session, per character, based on a fixed number of encounters. Characters would be at differing levels at some point. How do you calculate what every class should encounter when their level's are different?

I think, personally, having such a mechanic defeats the purpose of roleplaying to a degree. Like WHEELS said above, rewards should be based on many factors, including merit, RP, big risks, smart roleplay, including beating stuff up and taking its sheit.

~O

[Arduin]

There is little incentive for role-playing in many of those cases.

You beat me to it.

[kajukenbo]

Like WHEELS said above,

LOL!!!

[alcyone]

To be clear, I don't do anything different than the book recommends; they get XP for killing things and treasure, with a little RP bonus on top. They don't level at a set time; I just know when they will pretty much because I know how much monsters and treasure they are likely to encounter at their usual rate of 2-3 encounters a night.

They don't all level at once, unless of course they do. If they are short of XP for the next module and it's clear they'll need the levels, I have been doing mini 1-on-1 adventures with them to get them shored up.

But as for incentive to roleplay; I guess I'm just lucky to have players who do it anyway.

[zacharythefirst]

I've simplified XP, with the cost of leveling equal to the level desired +3. So in order to get to level 2, characters need 5 XP., Level 3 they need 6 more XP, etc.

Per session, give the following:
0=No show/no participation
1=Minimal participation
2=Enthusiastic/good participation
3=Epic participation/knocking the socks off the CK.

A three is rare, but it does happen now and again. I occasionally give bonus XP for things like buying a book for the group to share, making a cool new map, making some killer dip, that sort of thing.

Total XP needed per level under this system:
Level 2...5
3...11
4....18
5....26
6....35
7....45
8....56
9....68
10...81
11...95
12...110

It likely won't work for every group, but if you hate micro-tracking XP, I've found it to be a good system to use.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Guess this makes me the odd GM out. When I was GMing regularly (and fanatically!) I gave XP based on roleplaying. The winner, for instance, of an 1981 Oklahoma convention in which I ran the game rooms, was a young fellow who had LOST but who had sacrificed "his" freedom to remain with a helpless young girl who was trapped in a Bunnies & Burrows world. (Don't ask. I used to mix genres like mad. Now, I'm spending all my time creating my new world and trying to make it consistent.)

[Sir Ironside]

It would be very difficult to calculate the number of XP that should be awarded per session, per character, based on a fixed number of encounters. Characters would be at differing levels at some point. How do you calculate what every class should encounter when their level's are different?

To me it isn't a numbers game. It remains a role playing game. If I'm starting with a new group, I have a discussion, before any dice are thrown, to explain the game, my gaming style and that I have no restrictions on which class they want to be. Rather than shoe-horn some of them to get their classic, needs a fighter, needs a cleric, needs a thief rogue etc. They can play whatever they want. If the group ends up with 4 fighters, then the group has 4 fighters.

Tracking XP, I don't make the player track it, I do then hand it out at the end of a session. They only thing they have to do is add the new XP to the old XP. I like this transparent way of giving out XP because, lets say I am running a module, then every session they have a good idea what it takes to go to the next level. You might think that the players would then take it a little over-board to get those XP's, but I really have never had that problem. I let them know right at the beginning that one of my styles, is I am on their side, but I'll let anyone die if stupid or impossible situations occur.

Now I am well aware that many GM's don't share this view, or don't want the extra job to handle this stuff. And it is probably easier. But, this is how I've always done it so it is just second nature to me.

[Arduin]

I have a discussion, before any dice are thrown, to explain the game, my gaming style and that I have no restrictions on which class they want to be. Rather than shoe-horn some of them to get their classic, needs a fighter, needs a cleric, needs a thief rogue etc. They can play whatever they want. If the group ends up with 4 fighters, then the group has 4 fighters.

I do similar. The GM's job (when I am it) isn't to run the players or their characters. But, I never fudge dice rolls either. I let the chips fall where they may.

[Snoring Rock]

C&C is normally played quite a bit differently than D&D 3.5/Pathfinder. This system of calculating 13 encounters comes from D&D 3.X for balancing the game mechanic. Each class also levels at the same time (same Exp. values). With that mechanic, as you level up, you can expect that at higher levels you will not encounter lower level challenges either. Kobolds and Orcs seem to dry up past 3rd level. They just kind of go away in those campaigns. At first level you never worry about running int a dragon on accident. You can be assured the DM has carefully balnced the adveture for you. I prefer statu-quo campaigns where my best bet may be to run. And from time to time you come across a bunch of low-life orcs you take out in 3 rounds by yourself. There is enough balance as well.

In C&C that is not the case. Well, not the way I play anyway. Experience is given when there is a break in play generally, and not because that was the end of the adventure or module. That gets players looking for it and expecting it, and leads to meta-gaming.

Last night I played a character in a Pathfinder game. The party was on a mission to find a ruined castle and secure it from a band of Gnolls. Time was of the essence and we had only days to finish the mission. As we were passing through an area, we saw a creature fleeing a giant snake. One of the players wanted to follow it and kill both of them. I asked why, and the reply was that we could use the experience points, he was close to leveling. That really took the "game" out of the game. We were roll playing not role playing. There was not good reason "in game" to break off hot pursuit to go get some experience points. "In game" what is an experience point, my dwarf asked the elf?

I like the differences in classes and the differences in exprience based on role playing and not just on the tally of scalps on your lodge pole.

[TheMetal1]

For those of you who use xps, do you use any formulas or written guidelines to know how much xps and treasure you should give out per level?

First off, Somewhere around either here on the forums, or over at the Castles & Crusades Society (and maybe Dragonfoot), one of the dudes put a list of for every monster in M&T and did an average experience point calculation for each. Probably do a search for the following: Average+XP+Awards

I've found that extermely helpful, and use this instead of the M&T formula.

That being said, I'm a GM that usually hands out the XP at the end of the session or the begining of the next. I give it out first for killing monsters, dividing it equally among the participants. I also give out a Roleplayer of the session bonus. This is somewhere between 50 to 200 Xps depending on what they did. With this award I'll usually ask around the table who everyone thought was the best roleplayer, though I reserve the right to give it to someone I think did something very cool. This is one incentive - the carrot approach so to speak for those more introverted. I also give out XP for story arch or mission accomplishment. I like what they did in kingmaker with accomplishing short quests - kill this creature, capture four of these bandits, gather this ingrediant, etc. It's a bit MMOish I suppose but it's a short quest the players can focus on and gives them an easy win, it's also a way of leaving clues for bigger story archs. Obviously the quest size is commesurate with the amount of Xp and that too is split up between the participants. Lastly I had out about 200 XPs per Explorers. THis is another thing I took from an MMO - Dungeons & Dragons Eberron Unlimited to specific. When the party encounters a specific site location in a sandbox envrionment, they mark it on their map and get some XP. Again the carrot approach to discovery.

I go off the levels as listed, but based on class I do require training, which equals time and money to get their level abilities, but I"m flexible and it takes minimum in game time to do. If they level in the middle of the adventure, I might say the feel stronger, and tehy'll get the hit points just not the abilities.

[treant_on_fire]

Last night I played a character in a Pathfinder game. The party was on a mission to find a ruined castle and secure it from a band of Gnolls. Time was of the essence and we had only days to finish the mission. As we were passing through an area, we saw a creature fleeing a giant snake. One of the players wanted to follow it and kill both of them. I asked why, and the reply was that we could use the experience points, he was close to leveling. That really took the "game" out of the game. We were roll playing not role playing. There was not good reason "in game" to break off hot pursuit to go get some experience points. "In game" what is an experience point, my dwarf asked the elf?

I like the differences in classes and the differences in exprience based on role playing and not just on the tally of scalps on your lodge pole.

The problematic meta-gaming you described to me has nothing to do with classes advancing at the same time or not, it has to do with a player meta-gaming, period. Plus both games work with XP and both games have VARIANT RULES for handing out story-based XP. Both 3.X AND C&C's main way of handing out XP is KILLING STUFF.

If you were comparing 3.X to, I dunno, GURPS, then yes, your argument would be pro-GURPS valid, as killing things in that game does not give you more XP. As it is, the same player would have said the same thing playing C&C; "I need more XP!"

Seriously, I think C&C does some things better and some other things worse than 3.X... With that said, I'm tired of seeing people coming up with pro-C&C arguments that make no sense and gratuitously bash 3.X while pretending to keep an unbiased opinion. With all due respect, as far as 'killing monsters for XP' goes, ALL versions of D&D are equality guilty of that. but I don't see it as a bad thing in itself, that's what D&D IS. When I feel like doing something differently, I play another rpg, that's all.

And if I was the GM of that game, I would have outright told the player that he can't run after the monsters for that reason and moved on, it's also the GM's job to step in when stuff like that happens.