How will 5e affect C&C?

[MormonYoYoMan]

The information and playtest summary provided from the 5th Column blog, indicates that new D&D runs a lot like current C&C. This is a marketer's dream for TLG, limited only by marketing budget(s). A Google Ads campaign (usually inexpensive, but WotC could drive the costs up) combined with strong SEO copy writing would make WotC's publicity work for C&C.
This is assuming TLG even wants to take advantage of the attendant publicity. We've all seen negative lessons about expanding too quickly (TSR, SPI, WotG) and how effective it's been for the Trolls to expand slowly but surely.

[Arduin]

We've all seen negative lessons about expanding too quickly (TSR, SPI, WotG) and how effective it's been for the Trolls to expand slowly but surely.

Not really a problem when it is just orders that increase...

[DrRotwang]

I predict that 5th Ed. D&D will have a huge impact upon Castles & Crusades, in that it will add 1 to the number of FRPGs that I eschew in favor of C&C.

Okay so maybe not huge.

[Breakdaddy]

I predict that 5th Ed. D&D will have a huge impact upon Castles & Crusades, in that it will add 1 to the number of FRPGs that I eschew in favor of C&C.

Okay so maybe not huge.

Hah! Well said

[finarvyn]

From what I hear we are already playing 5e

An interesting point. While I know you're not being serious, it's certainly true that many of the design concepts that WotC has discussed seem similar to some of the design concepts that went into the design of C&C. C&C forms a nice bridge between the AD&D style and 3E, and I think that both of those editions will get heavy inspriration in 5E. Of course, C&C doesn't have anything quite along the lines of 4E, and I anticipate a lot of 4E lurking in 5E somewhere as well (for better or worse).

It will be interesting to see what WotC ends up with, and how close it is philosophically to what we've been playing for quite a while now.

[alcyone]

I've been following the Legends and Lore column over at WoTC, and it has a poll for each post. According to the polls, just about everything I think is good everyone else thinks is bad, and everything I think is terrible everyone thinks is great.

For my part, 5e isn't looking like any kind of replacement for C&C or any other system I like. If they have any ideas that are awesome, I am pretty sure I can just swipe them and use them in C&C in any case.

[Troll Lord]

Damnit! I wrote this long ass response to this thread, got called away from the desk for a few hours, came back, finished it and submitted and it asked me to log in and lost the post.



I'll comment again after a spell!

Steve

[MormonYoYoMan]

I'll comment again after a spell!

And the spell is ... Restore Memory! (8th Level Cleric spell, requires sacrifice of a Harry Lorayne book.)

[Troll Lord]

I'll comment again after a spell!

And the spell is ... Restore Memory! (8th Level Cleric spell, requires sacrifice of a Harry Lorayne book.)

LOL I have a memory like a dinosaur. I don't. Even my youngest told me tonight, "dad you brain is soooo tiny." Little bastard.

So concerning 5e. I welcome the release of a version of D&D that will reinvigorate the RPG market with the retail channel.

Right now, retailers and distributors are all fairly convinced that the genre is dying a fast death and invest less and less into the market. Creating a self fulfilling prophecy they are driving potential fans away from their shops to the internet because full service game stops don't mean that any more. In their defense its expensive, risky and slow moving. Magic the Gathering is much faster.

Couple that with the increased comfort level people have in using the internet to order and the ability of publishers to showcase their products online (particularly with digital content) and you have extreme pressures on that market which is driving it into the background.

It was not always thus . . .

With leaders in the field like WoTC, WizKids and White Wolf we could expect large volume sales and FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY marketing campaigns that helped drive the game and genre forward. Those days ended in the mid Owghts however; WizKids was consumed, White Wolf bought out and Wizards dropped the ball with 4e (it might be a great game, but it did not do well in the overall market). No one has stepped up to fill the shoes. Paizo is moving in the right direction, but there is no marketing impetus coming from them. Nothing new that brings in new consumers (the basic set does not do that, no basic set will, the marketing would have to be directed at a target audience and have product awareness as its primary goal).

So IF WoTC is willing and able to get back in the game with an RPG that appeals to more people then that is a good thing. It might convince the retailers to come back to the land of milk and honey.

How does this affect C&C? Well coat tails are always good. So we'll see a jump in residual sales from new consumers or returning consumers much like we did with 3e. So that is good.

Will it eat away at our core base. No. I don't think so. Some will migrate over for sure, but we've weathered all these games with growth every quarter. I don't think there are many RPGs going into their 5th printing.

What gives C&C an angle? Well it is what is what we (and by we I mean TLG and you all) say it is. Its an inexpensive, fast paced, easy to learn RPG that you can pick up and start playing in 15 minutes. It is the Rosetta stone of gaming. That gives it an angle. When you show people they are frequently convinced.

So I'm not worried about 5e at all. I welcome it for what it can bring back to the market. I hope it is successful and I hope that they work hard on actually marketing the game and genre.

Does any of that make sense? Its kind of late and me be tired.

Steve

[redwullf]

Does any of that make sense?

Whoa! I was jogging along and BAM! Wall of text. With your leave I shall attempt to summarize...

Him say D&D 5 make people interested again and buy more RPG books. Him say good for D&D, then good for C&C too, good for EVERYONE!

[rickyh]

Little long, if you want the short version, here you go:

*I am a real person, convert, number, statistic, you can count as 5e affecting (is that right?)in favor C&C.*

So...I have played C&C a few times before (see my join date) and always loved it. My former co-workers (I have since switched jobs) always wanted to play 4e. Well a few months go I decided to put together a group. I've played around with Pathfinder (I play in a game on Thursday nights) and thought about a PF game, a 4e game (which I'm not a huge fan of but easier to find players for atm here). Well it was about this time that 5e was announced. I went through all my gaming material (over $2500.00 in gaming book) and decided on C&C. Well I only had the 2nd printing of M&T and PHB.

Now I've got some wiling players on top of willing players and at least two of them in addition to me (3 total) have basically said "3e, 3.x, 4e, 4essentials, 5e..etc...We're just tired of all the changes, tired of basically having to subscribe to DDI, tired of the newschool style, tired of the rigid ruleset. I showed them C&C and they were mostly convinced but wanted more customization. The CKG filled this role and pushed the over the edge into actually liking the game.

Now could I be just a bump for TLG? I suppose it's possible. As far as I see myself. I've found the game I want, see no reason to change back. It's stable, with an active community, and the staff get directly involved and get player feedback.

I've since procured the CKG, 4th printing of the PHB and M&T, Shadows of the Halfing Hall, the Umbrage Saga (actual boxed, not pdf), CKG Landscape Screen, and the Deities digest book.

I see myself picking up more adventures as well as more phbs as they get newe printings.

I said all this to say that while I waning on WoTC's D&D anyhow, the announcement of 5e pushed me to look for something else and I found it!

What gives C&C an angle? Well it is what is what we (and by we I mean TLG and you all) say it is. Its an inexpensive, fast paced, easy to learn RPG that you can pick up and start playing in 15 minutes. It is the Rosetta stone of gaming. That gives it an angle. When you show people they are frequently convinced.

[Arduin]

I said all this to say that while I waning on WoTC's D&D anyhow, the announcement of 5e pushed me to look for something else and I found it!

Huzzah!

[Lord Dynel]

Does any of that make sense?

Makes perfect sense, Steve. I agree that anything that will reinvigorate the hobby is a good thing for all companies, not just the new and shiny. Whether or not the industry continues to move away from the brick-and-mortar (which I hope it doesn't) I don't think hinges on this, though. I think the move to the internet, and out of the distribution and retail route, could be the beginning of the end of the hobby - and it's a slowly growing trend - but that's another story for another time.

If Paizo continues to prosper and Wizards released 5e and it does well, too, then we might see the thriving market that the hobby not only needs, but is also helpful to all games.

[Omote]

I'm also pretty much with Steve in his response. Sure, the new edition will draw in some of the C&C player base. Sure we might lose some forever, but I think that those who like C&C will migrate back once 5E hits full stride. From what I can gather, there will be LOTS of stuff in 5E. You won't have to use it all, but it is will probably be hard to run the 5E game where one player wants to play one way and the others want to play a different way. I see that as an overall misstep with the way 5E will be designed. It will probably draw lots of players/GMs in fast, but I don't think 5E will keep all of them.

~O

[Arduin]

I see that as an overall misstep with the way 5E will be designed. It will probably draw lots of players/GMs in fast, but I don't think 5E will keep all of them.

~O

I too see this as its biggest potential design flaw. It was tough enough in 3.5 when players wanted to bring in all possible splat book rules. If what I've read about 5e (from the designers) is true, it'll be an even bigger headache for DM's than was 3.5 in that respect...

[Omote]

I see that as an overall misstep with the way 5E will be designed. It will probably draw lots of players/GMs in fast, but I don't think 5E will keep all of them.

~O

I too see this as its biggest potential design flaw. It was tough enough in 3.5 when players wanted to bring in all possible splat book rules. If what I've read about 5e (from the designers) is true, it'll be an even bigger headache for DM's than was 3.5 in that respect...

Yup. The leading thoughts on this seem to be that if you want to play a simpler game, then why waste all of your money on the other sections of 5E that don't pertain to you? If that's the case, stick with C&C. C&C will be complete and have a whole lot of good years behind it, and of course, ahead of it.

~O

[Relaxo]

Could be a good time for a big C&C Society push to recruit new players!

[concobar]

C&C survived the 3.5 OGL glut of crap. C&C survived the Pathfinder/D&D 4e tag-team. I don't see why this would change with D&D 5e.

True. I am a fan of 4E but have to agree with the statement made about feeling a light bit of betrayal. I have never put C&C totally to the side and with the rerelease of the AD&D books may run a mash up C&C-AD&D campaign. I have never been a huge fan of the seige system but find C&C to be a perfect modernization of AD&D otherwise and tend to import AD&D skills into my C&C games instead of bothering with it,(the siege system) that said, and more on topic, I think each iteration of D&D will have to settle with a smaller share of the market. At this time there are so many worthwhile games on the market that the times of TSR/WoTC dominance are coming to a close. L5R4e , Savage worlds, Labyrinth Lords, Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder, MongTraveller, and so many more games are available and offer stiff compitition to the old king of RPGs. I think this is a good thing.

There are more worthy games out there to play than most of us have time.

[Julian Grimm]

I can see myself using parts of 5e just like I use parts of 3.X or 4e in my games. However, I will admit some of what is being said about the system is attracting.

[Lord Dynel]

I am a fan of 4E but have to agree with the statement made about feeling a light bit of betrayal.

I can sympathize. We 3.5 fans felt the same way.

However, I will admit some of what is being said about the system is attracting.

I agree. Some of it is very intriguing. If they can pull off this modular system, they might be able to make another innovation to the industry (the d20 system being the last).

Nice to see you back, by the way, JG. Back on the gaming scene, I take it?

[Julian Grimm]

Nice to see you back, by the way, JG. Back on the gaming scene, I take it?

Things are doing better and I am glad to be back. Thanks for the welcome back.