Listen Check...Class Skill?

[Snoring Rock]

Ok, so with the siege engine, we add level, modifier (if there is one), determine prime or not, amd then roll d20 and add it all together.

So is listen really a class skill? I can see a fighter not adding level for trying to pick pockets. But why shouldnt my fighter add his level to a wisdom check like in the case of listen?

Anyone, how do you handle this, or do only assassins and rogues get this in your games?

[kreider204]

I'm pretty strict about class skills. Most of the time, if it's not a skill for your class, then you don't get to do it at all. The only exceptions are things that anyone can obviously do, such as listening. In those cases, though, no level modifier, and a success is qualitatively lesser than that of someone with the class skill - for example, a fighter will hear some talking beyond the door, but the rogue will be able to make out the specific words.

If that seems too harsh to you, you could try a middle ground - allow the level bonus, but still make the non-class skill success qualitatively lesser than the class skill.

Hope that helps.

[Omote]

As per the rules, I only let the assassin and rogue add their level to listen checks. I also tend not to call for listen checks to often. It's a personal preference that if the PCs need to hear something to progress the story or adventure forward, they hear the noise. If the player calls for a listen check on his own, of course he can roll for the check and add his level.

~O

[Arduin]

So is listen really a class skill? I can see a fighter not adding level for trying to pick pockets. But why shouldnt my fighter add his level to a a wisdom check liks in the case of listen?

Yes, this has been a "class skill" for Rogues since at least 1978 (AD&D 1st Ed PHB) and C&C is pretty consistent in this regard.

[Snoring Rock]

Sure enough, it is a class skill for assassins and rogues, but everyone else can do it too. I guess it can be played as anyone else can, in fact hear something, but the rogue can hear exactly what it is.....same check, but more effective.

I think that checks for strength like long jumping over a chasm is more in the line of a fighter, a rogue, but not a wizard. But it would be a strength check for each of them, and they would all add level. Listen seems kind of broken to me. Unless you give the rogue a bonus. But then again, the examples above kind of fix that.

Any other examples?

[kreider204]

Move silently. Anyone can do it, but again, I only allow those with the class ability to add level. Furthermore, the class ability is qualitatively better - it allows for complete silence, whereas a fighter (for example) moving silently still makes some sound, and so I might allow an alert foe to make a Wisdom check to hear him coming.

[Lord Dynel]

Sure enough, it is a class skill for assassins and rogues, but everyone else can do it too. I guess it can be played as anyone else can, in fact hear something, but the rogue can hear exactly what it is.....same check, but more effective.

I think that checks for strength like long jumping over a chasm is more in the line of a fighter, a rogue, but not a wizard. But it would be a strength check for each of them, and they would all add level. Listen seems kind of broken to me. Unless you give the rogue a bonus. But then again, the examples above kind of fix that.

Any other examples?

I follow the simple, and basically by-the-book method of, "if it's not someone else's class skill, then add your level." But I also understand Snoring's example on jumping. I probably would be hard-pressed to let the wizard add his level (unless he had an athletic backstory ), but I would also make sure something came up in the future where he could add his level to a check and others might not be allowed (such as research in a library, looking for a specific piece of information).

Now there are some class abilities that I won't allow another class to attempt (also like the PHB suggests). If I would consider it a "highly specialized" skill, then I rule it off limits to other classes - a ranger's Track, the assassin's Poisons ability, a knight's Horsemanship, or a bard's Legend Lore for examples.

[serleran]

For "every man" checks, those things which could theoretically be done by anyone, I allow te use of a d12 with X chance to succeed. For things like listening... there is no roll for obvious noises (like the overweight troll bellowing "bree-yark!" as it stumbles from being over drunk), and for those that would require one, like hearing the sound of silence through thirty tons of soundproof material (actually, that would be impossible, but whatever) then only those with actual ability can try.

Anything that is not a specific class ability, like jumping, is an every man check. If I make a class that does get "jumping," then I am sure to include what they can do with it that others could not.

[doominicus]

I am strict to the rule: I add level to the class skill, if you check a skill of another class you don't add your level. Period.
I have elaborated a skill system on my own but it is only a developement of the basic system presented in the PHB and the free form of the CKG. One day or another I will post it.

[Relaxo]

The book also points out some CK fudge area here: While anyone can "Listen" the rogue and assassin can listen better. The example in the book was move silently, the rogue can be 100% ninja silent, while a fighter succeeding the roll will just be really quiet. It's a subtle difference, but it might be what allows an assassin to sneak past a sleeping dog, while a fighter in clinking chainmail will still wake up the dog even if they make their roll (I'd allow some sort of initiative bonus to flee or kill the dog since they get the jump on it while it wakes, FWIW).

So for listen, I'd do something like this: while the others can only hear that someone is speaking on the other side of the door, they can't make anything out. But the A & R can hear snippets of the conversation, like, the guards say there are 10 more guards in the other wing of the castle (or whatever, they can recognize the speakers are speaking orcish, so they know they're orcs, or they can tell there's at least 5 people talking, whatever).
Thus, both rolls reveals people behind the door the characters are listening at, and both are 'successes' but the ones with the class skill were allowed to add their level to get this success (they have a better chance of succeeding) and they do it better.
YMMV

[koralas]

True, anyone can "listen", but thieves and assassins have a heightened awareness that comes from years of paranoia, being on edge while being hunted, and the need to sneak about undiscovered. This ability is much more than simply trying to listen in on a conversation, but to be able to discern very low volume sounds, or pick out a sound as "odd" from the background din.

For example, listening at a door -

Door 1, there are 6 orcs sitting at a table, drinking. A 4th level thief with an Wis of 10 has +4 on his check at a CB of 18, a fighter/4 has a Wis of 12 for no bonus or penalty on a CB of 18. Being that the orcs on the other side are not trying to be quiet, the CK could rule on a situational bonus of +8 to listen at the door. This means the thief will detect them on a 6, the fighter on a 10.

Door 2, there are 6 orcs sitting in wait behind the door, same characters as above. Since the orcs are on alert and trying to be quiet, there is no situational bonus. The fighter needs an 18, the thief needs a 14. The thief is trained for this, he tunes out the noises of his group and his own breathing and hears the slight shuffling of a foot as an orc shifts his weight in his stance. This ability manifested since he often has had to try and determine if there is anyone on the other side of a door prior to entering to steal something.

[gideon_thorne]

Sure, your character might be able to hear a noise, but being able to identify its nature, origins, distance, and relative threat level is something that comes with training and experience.

That's the difference between "Hey, I heard a noise" and "There's 20 armed orc's approaching down the corridor, and each of them has 20 gp's in their pouches. One of them also ate something spicy".

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The other thing I haven't seen here is the bonus granted to elves on perception checks. Granted, it's not adding a level to a check, but for the first couple of levels, it's the same equivalent.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Normally, though, I don't restrict characters from using non-class abilities. I don't allow characters to add levels to their checks, however. It's a handy way to deal with instances when, for example, the party is without a rogue-type.