Making the most of SEIGE

[Lawolf]

I am somewhat new to C&C and from what I have read there appears to be many interesting things one can do with the SEIGE engine. I am excited about playing and was hoping to hear some examples of how this works. What are the most memorable tricks you have seen or performed using this system?

Thanks for the help.

[Arduin]

Do you have a copy of the PHB? If so, start by reading about the Siege Engine on pg. 122. This will give you a good grounding on how the system works.

[Chainsaw Mage]

I am somewhat new to C&C and from what I have read there appears to be many interesting things one can do with the SEIGE engine. I am excited about playing and was hoping to hear some examples of how this works. What are the most memorable tricks you have seen or performed using this system?

Thanks for the help.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "trick". The Siege engine is basically a unified mechanic basing most actions on the character's attributes. It's fantastic and worth checking out; C&C converted me from AD&D 2e.

[Lord Dynel]

I, too, am not sure what you mean by "trick," Lawolf. The SIEGE system is very versatile and can handle every check necessary in the game. All class ability checks, saving throws, and attribute checks are resolved using the SIEGE Engine. But it's not just a "roll for this, roll for that" type of system. C&C wants to put the ajudication of actions back into the hands of the referee, or the CK in C&C's case. If the CK can determine if something is routine or mundane, then no check need be rolled. It's only when there's a real chance for failure, or the task is dangerous or risky should the check even be made. Of course, the system isdesigned to allow for as many rolls as you want to make during a game. Personally, I enjoy taking a step back from 3.5 D&D and not having to make 40 rolls a session. My players were suprised when I told them, "sure you can do that," without making some kind of check!

Oh, and welcome to the Crusade (and you, too, Chainsaw Mage)!

[gideon_thorne]

Well, there's a bit on what can be done with the siege engine in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11957&p=183865#p183865

Now. Lets consider abilities and prime scores for a second. This can apply to all classes, and, I don't think is overly considered.

What does a prime give you anyhow? Essentially a +6 to a roll to an ability that a character is trained in. Logically, a character class is going to be trained in abilities that make sense to the class.

Looking at it from that angle, the abilities for any class expand a great deal.

But we're looking at the fighter.

A fighter already has strength as a prime ability. Now, a person trained in the use of their strength is likely to know what such usage can entail. Off the top of my head is the usages of leverage and muscle power. Not only is the character likely to have the physical power to move heavy things, they are going to know how to do it in the most efficient way possible. This has a wide variety of applications from building things.. to knocking them down. In short, the principles of siege warfare.

The same thing can be done for the other attributes. The intelligent and or wise fighter is going to be a strategist. Miyamoto Musashi springs to mind as such a combination. When attributes call for it, and perhaps when you have a player who isn't strong on military strategy, an intelligence or wisdom check can allow the CK to provide suggestions as to what the character 'ought to know'. Con based primes give the character knowledge of endurance and possibly a basic understanding of physiology. Charisma is another one. Here you have your leaders, folks who know about the social etiquette surrounding military like societies. This would also give a solid grounding in the psychology of group dynamics. Or how you can get large masses of people operating in a unit instead of a cat herd.

The same principles can apply to the other classes, even if they have a few more defined abilities than the fighter. But don't let what's written in the book limit you to what your character can do.

Any and all of these primes can logically lead to giving bonus's on skill checks. Perhaps a deft Dexterity can give a character a bonus to hit , based on the difference between the target number and what the character rolls over, for particularly tricky ranged attacks? That's just one thing.

The fighters combat dominance gives the character the ability to sweep multiple targets at once, of low hit die creatures. It enables a fighter to understand the flow of the combat around them. Perhaps an intelligence prime fighter can extend that ability to higher HD creatures with an intelligence check? Or whatever check seems logical.

Just some thoughts on the matter.

I babbled on about things that can be done with siege checks, with just some common sense approaches, a few posts down in the discussion.

[alcyone]

The greatest trick of them all: running a D&D-like game without having anything thrown at you.

[Lawolf]

To clarify, by "tricks" I mean stunts, cinematic actions, and creative maneuvers. For example could a rogue throw dirt in an opponents eyes to temporarily blind them with a Dex check, a warrior swing for the knees to trip his foe with a strength check, and the wizard distract his foes with dancing lights and an Int check so the rogue can get in a good backstabbing?

[gideon_thorne]

To clarify, by "tricks" I mean stunts, cinematic actions, and creative maneuvers. For example could a rogue throw dirt in an opponents eyes to temporarily blind them with a Dex check, a warrior swing for the knees to trip his foe with a strength check, and the wizard distract his foes with dancing lights and an Int check so the rogue can get in a good backstabbing?

Absolutely. Even if its not spelled out in the game, you can always try any of this sort of thing.

[Omote]

Absolutely. Even if its not spelled out in the game, you can always try any of this sort of thing.

... at the discretion of the Castle Keeper.

~O

[Chainsaw Mage]

Oh, and welcome to the Crusade (and you, too, Chainsaw Mage)!

Thanks! I've been around on enworld and rpg.net (and to a lesser extent dragonsfoot) for ages, and finally migrated here. I'm pretty much all C&C these days and that won't change anytime soon.

[Chainsaw Mage]

To clarify, by "tricks" I mean stunts, cinematic actions, and creative maneuvers. For example could a rogue throw dirt in an opponents eyes to temporarily blind them with a Dex check, a warrior swing for the knees to trip his foe with a strength check, and the wizard distract his foes with dancing lights and an Int check so the rogue can get in a good backstabbing?

If the Castle Keeper (CK) rules yes, then a rogue (who has Dexterity as a prime attribute) can indeed throw dirt in an opponent's eyes, making an attribute check with a base challenge of 12, plus a challenge level of (probably) 0-10. Let's say the CK calls it challenge level 3. So he has to beat a 15 on a roll of 1d20. But your rogue adds his Dex modifier (let's say it's +1) and his level (let's say he's 3rd level) to his check, so he's effectively having to roll 11 or more. He rolls 16. Voila! Orc is now blinded (there's a modifer for attacking while blinded, but don't have my book handy) for a round or so.

On the other hand, the CK may allow the orcs to do the exact same thing to your rogue . . .

[MormonYoYoMan]

Absolutely. Even if its not spelled out in the game, you can always try any of this sort of thing.

... at the discretion of the Castle Keeper.

~O

Even without the GM's discretion, one can always TRY........

[Lord Dynel]

To clarify, by "tricks" I mean stunts, cinematic actions, and creative maneuvers. For example could a rogue throw dirt in an opponents eyes to temporarily blind them with a Dex check, a warrior swing for the knees to trip his foe with a strength check, and the wizard distract his foes with dancing lights and an Int check so the rogue can get in a good backstabbing?

Got ya. That's really pretty easy, Lawolf. Going along with what I was saying in my previous post, I would almost certainly require a SIEGE check on a maneuver like these. That being said, if a PC can properly describe the action and the scene/situation provides for the action then I would almost certainly allow it to be tried at least. Kicking sand in someone's face, grabbing the chandelier and performing a swinging kick on a foe, performing a flourish with a weapon to intimidate the foe (a la Conan)...the list goes on and on. The amount of those types of cinematics are up to the CK, but mechanically they are easily possible - the SIEGE Engine is quite versatile. As a CK, I try to not limit the creativity and imagination of my players - as long as they're not trying to "game the system" I usually allow them to try something.

[Lord Crimson]

Melire (who, I believe posts here from time to time, but whom I usually see on RPG.net) allows PCs to basically mimic 3.x edition feats with SIEGE rolls and bases the difficulty on how far up the "chain" that feat is.

So, you want to cleave? Sure you can! Just make a Str check, with a CL of 1.

You want to make a whirlwind attack against everyone within reach? Hmmm... You can do it, but it's going to take a Dex check with a CL of 10.

I, personally, think it's kind of ingenious and fairly elegant. The advantage is that you can have a fighter basically get access to some of his abilities early (like extra attacks)... but he has to roll a SIEGE check to get them. Once he's at a high enough level, no more SIEGE roll.

[Relaxo]

What they all said.


Welcome aboard! Put away the rules and take out your imagination!

I quote from "A quick primer for old school gaming"
Free download link: http://www.lulu.com/product/file-downlo ... ng/3159558

The Ninja Jump (Modern)
We enter this example in the middle of combat.
GM: “You’re up on the ten-foot high ledge, and down below, the goblin is about to attack
Frank the Cleric.”
John the Roguish: “I grasp my sword, blade downward, and leap off the ledge, driving
the sword blade deep into the goblin’s back using the weight of my body and the fall to
cause tons of extra damage.”
GM: “Seriously?”
John the Roguish” “Yeah.”
Frank the Cleric: “Oh, hell, here we go again.”
GM: “What feat are you using?”
John the Roguish: “I don’t have a feat for it. I want to try it anyway. Untrained.”
GM: “You don’t have a leap attack or spring attack or anything like that?”
John the Roguish: “Nope.”
GM: “It’s just a regular attack, then. You might be able to get extra damage if you had a
trained skill that applied.”
John the Roguish: “Okay, I rolled a 2.”
GM: “That’s a miss. And you fall to a prone position.”
John the Roguish: “Hey, that’s not fair. If it’s just a normal attack, there shouldn’t be a
chance for me to fall prone. If I had some chance to get a benefit I can see it, but I started
from a good tactical position and I didn’t get anything but a regular attack with an
automatic chance to end up prone. That’s not fair.
GM: “Okay, but even if you had a +2 from being up above, you still missed.”
John the Roguish: “I’m just saying there’s nothing in the rules that says I should end up
prone after making that attack.”
Frank the Cleric: “I attack the goblin.”
GM: “Okay, I’ll tell you what. Roll against your jump skill with a target number of 10,
and if you succeed then you stay standing.”
Frank the Cleric: “I attack the goblin.”
John the Roguish: “I rolled a 9, but I have a dex modifier of +2, so it’s an 11.”
GM: “Okay, you’re still standing.”
Frank the Cleric: “I attack the goblin.”

The Ninja Jump (Old Style)
We enter this example in the middle of combat.
GM: “You’re up on the ten-foot high ledge, and down below, the goblin is about to attack
Frank the Cleric.”
John the Roguish: “I grasp my sword, blade downward, and leap off the ledge, driving
the sword blade deep into the goblin’s back using the weight of my body and the fall to
cause tons of extra damage.”
GM: “Seriously?”
John the Roguish” “Yeah.”
Frank the Cleric: “Oh, hell, here we go again.”
GM: [decides that he’ll give John a to-hit roll. Success will let him get extra damage, but
failure will cause some sort of disaster.] “You leap off the ledge. Roll to hit.”
John: “I rolled a 2.”
GM: “Okay, you trip as you jump off the ledge and you get tangled up with the sword.
You knock the goblin down to the ground, but you don’t land on your feet either. You’re
both sprawled on the floor. Also, you may have hit yourself when you landed on the
goblin. Roll to hit again.”
John: “I rolled a 15.”
GM: “You stab yourself in the leg. Roll damage.”
Frank the Cleric: “Roll high.”
John the Roguish: “Screw you, Frank. I roll a 2.”
GM: “Two points of damage, then. You don’t take any falling damage, because the
goblin broke your fall. You’re on the ground and so is he. Frank’s standing there with
his mace, completely confused by what just happened.”
Frank the Cleric: “While the goblin’s sprawled on the ground, I slay him with a mighty
blow of my mace.”
GM: “Roll to hit.”
John the Roguish: “I don’t see why I should be down on the ground.”
GM: “You rolled a 2, that’s a crappy roll, you got tangled in your sword, and you’re on
the ground. You would have done double damage if you hit.”
John the Roguish: “Where’s that in the books?”
GM: “It’s not. I just made it up. Frank, roll to hit.”

[serleran]

Once, after a Troll Lord (from the Haunted Highlands, I believe) crushed our poor unloved halfling rogue which, for no apparent reason, upset my half-orc ranger. He then, wielding his sword of giant slaying, smote at the beast declaring a called shot to horn. A roll was made, and a 20 was scored. This was then followed by a call for a Strength check, which was passed with relative ease, and out came the thing in pristine cleaved condition. The monster roared, and fell, dead... or we thought. We chopped it into pieces and put them into a bag of holding as we thought some powerful magic-user might want such a trophy.