What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

[Frost]

Ser's ideas are nice. Errata. Clarifications. But Tyler is dead-on, keep that price low.

[tylermo]

The price point very low on the printed adventures, as well. Apart from the old 8.99 prices from the mid-2000's, it seems the trolls are keeping the modules at 5.99 and 6.99 on average(excepting a few 5.00 and larger ones onion the teens). That's about 3-4 dollars under the industry norm for adventures. Price is very important.

[MormonYoYoMan]

And I doubt anyone would complain if there was lots more of that artist's black & while illustrations. What WAS that guy's name again?

[moriarty777]

As much as I 'could' get flak for this...

The majority of those new spells for the illusionist introduced in the 4th printing? I would love if they disappeared. I'm truly indifferent about the healing thing and that's really up to interpretation (they can stay) and I understand that some people felt that the class needed a bit more 'oomph'. That said, the dragon themed spells should be tossed if only because they are dragon themed! If these were to be rewritten to become templates for 'x' at the illusionist's discretion (it could be dragon or it could be something else entirely) that could be find. On the other hand, a spell like Double Treasure? Has anyone every actually used this or seen someone use this in game?

That's my wish because the 3rd print was almost perfect and while the 4th print had great additions (multiclassing suggestions for instance), I think the majority of the new spells a bad move. I have plenty of books with plenty of spells to source from and in the end, I would have just preferred the classic list the first three printing had.

Just an opinion for what it is worth.



M

[Sir Ironside]

That's my wish because the 3rd print was almost perfect and while the 4th print had great additions (multiclassing suggestions for instance), I think the majority of the new spells a bad move. I have plenty of books with plenty of spells to source from and in the end, I would have just preferred the classic list the first three printing had.

Illusionist controversy aside. Not everyone (Including me) has a bunch of source books for spells and would rather see them in a TLG product than a 3rd party book. I have no time or inclination to search for said books, nor do I want to tweak them for the Seige Engine, no matter how easy it may be.

[moriarty777]

That's my wish because the 3rd print was almost perfect and while the 4th print had great additions (multiclassing suggestions for instance), I think the majority of the new spells a bad move. I have plenty of books with plenty of spells to source from and in the end, I would have just preferred the classic list the first three printing had.

Illusionist controversy aside. Not everyone (Including me) has a bunch of source books for spells and would rather see them in a TLG product than a 3rd party book. I have no time or inclination to search for said books, nor do I want to tweak them for the Seige Engine, no matter how easy it may be.

In that case, my earlier idea of a spell 'template' would work. Consider the 'Dragon Armor' spell... it could be 'Rock Armor' or 'Ice Armor' etc... The Dragon Mount could be a 'Griffon Mount'. I say this because I had a player who played the illusionist in my campaign (and also doesn't have anything other that the C&C PHB) and was turned 'off' by what appeared to be a dragon obsession. If there is a reason for the C&C class to have a connection with dragons, then maybe the book should talk about it. Sorcerers in 3rd Edition could have a dragonbased bloodline... is this something similar?

But I do hear you, I realize that not everyone has a whole bunch of other books they can use and adapt, and I'm certainly not advocating to take something and just 'Siege it up'. If these are illusions and are meant to have a larger impact than just being a handful of themed spells, perhaps offering tweaks to the existing spells and give 'image' alternatives which a player can pick from (or create their own with the approval of the CK).

An 'Illusionary Armor' spell or other generic but illusionist appropriate name where the theme can be 'swapped out' for different ones would be more useful. That Double Treasure could be a Double Stuff (or Items, or Materials, etc etc) and effectively have near identical game mechanics and properties.

M

[Lord Dynel]

I agree with you, mori, and my lack of love for illusionist healing is documented. I would personally prefer (meaning, I already did this with my house rules) spells that gave temporary hit points as it would fit the theme a lot better. As far as the dragon themed spells go, I agree also - my only rationale would be that since dragons are the "iconic" creatures of fantasy role-playing, and are very awe-inspiring, they chose those to be illusionary creature of choice. Double Treasure? Yean, that's a head scratcher to me, too.

[zacharythefirst]

Keeping the price low is big. Buying a PHB for $20-25, and everything I need to run a game for $50 max is awesome, and a big selling point for my groups.

[Peter]

If these were to be rewritten to become templates for 'x' at the illusionist's discretion (it could be dragon or it could be something else entirely) that could be find.

How about something like this. It's a mishmash of the main illusion spells.

ILLUSION (Intelligence): This spell creates an illusion of an object, creature or force, as visualized by the caster. The illusion can cover a 20 foot cubic area plus 10 cubic feet per level of the caster. While concentrating, the caster can move the image within the area of effect. The illusion disappears if an opponent disbelieves for some reason or makes the required saving throw.

At 3rd level, the illusion can include some minor sounds, but not understandable speech.

At 5th level, the illusion can include smell and thermal.

At 9th level, the illusion can follow a script determined by the caster, without requiring the caster’s concentration. The illusion can also include intelligible speech if the caster wishes.

At 11th level, the illusion can be permanent until an onlooker disbelieves or passes their saving throw.

At 13th level, the caster can choose to trigger the illusion based upon any condition normally obvious to the senses. The illusion activates when a specific condition occurs, chosen when the spell is cast.

[moriarty777]

Not bad Peter... not bad at all. A bit earlier today, I was thinking about how I would modify the some of the spells but the heart of my issue with the class is the need for it to stand on it's own as opposed of being a different spellcaster. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that the class was dropped when AD&D went from 1st edition to 2nd either.

This is pretty cool... A spell-like ability or skill in lieu of actual spells. I think I would like to see a class with something like half a wizards spell progression but more class abilities. But such conjecture is worthy of its own thread I think. On with the regularly scheduled discussion!



M

[Frost]

Actually, I' could see some of the explanation about Illusion spells from the CKG added to the PH. I really like the CKG suggestion that flips the save from being based on the target to the illusionist. That is, the Illusionist has to make a SEIGE check to make the healing spell work (rather than the target failing for it to work). That ties in well with the rest of the explanation of how the Illusionist is really bending reality to his own ends.

[Arduin]

Actually, I' could see some of the explanation about Illusion spells from the CKG added to the PH. I really like the CKG suggestion that flips the save from being based on the target to the illusionist. That is, the Illusionist has to make a SEIGE check to make the healing spell work (rather than the target failing for it to work). That ties in well with the rest of the explanation of how the Illusionist is really bending reality to his own ends.

This & whatever errata & explanations for things that aren't quite clear. But I don't want an "expansion" of the PHB. It is about the best rule set I've owned.

[BudaZoa]

I am hoping this will be the final reprinting of the PHB.

[tylermo]

Final reprinting? Do you mean you'd like to see an actual new edition of C&C in the future? Not just a reprinting?

[Omote]

If this is the final reprinting, that means the game is slowly loosing out. We wouldn't want to see that. TLG is not going to print 10,000 copies of the new printing. But, when the 5th printing does sell out there will in no doubt be a 6th.

~O

[Ancalagon]

Continued reprints = since that means more people are getting into the C&C gaming goodness! Back in the day, the AD&D Players Handbook went through over a dozen separate printings...

New Editions = Just look at the trainwreck that is WotC...

[kreider204]

The confusion is that the RPG world uses the terms "printings" and "editions" a bit differently than the rest of the publishing world ...

[Sir Ironside]

The confusion is that the RPG world uses the terms "printings" and "editions" a bit differently than the rest of the publishing world ...

Under funded schools.

[TheMetal1]

The confusion is that the RPG world uses the terms "printings" and "editions" a bit differently than the rest of the publishing world ...

Under funded schools.

Gentlemen, IIRC didn't our beloved Trolls accidentally release a flyer announcing the 4th Edition of the Players Handbook? Though quickly corrected, it was an additional layer of mystery and confusion!

[Omote]

They did. Underfunded schools and such.

~O

[tylermo]

That may be why one of my friends insisted that C&C's printings had been referred to as "edition". I was still right in the end.

[Piperdog]

I am leaning toward having the expanded class info as presented in the ckg placed in the PHB, and future printings of the CKG getting rid of it. What do you think?

[MormonYoYoMan]

I am leaning toward having the expanded class info as presented in the ckg placed in the PHB, and future printings of the CKG getting rid of it. What do you think?

Sounds like that's where it should have been in the first place, if it had been thought of in the first place. That's the problem with expansions -- they usually occur after the final product is published.

[tylermo]

Actual copies of the 5th printing before my next convention in late June.

[Troll Lord]

We are working on the cover of the next printing now. There will not be any major changes or additions. It will be 144 page etc etc.

I'm going to look at the SR as I think that needed clarification, weapon weights, and what nots. Peter has been putting in grammar corrections etc.

Thanks!
Steve

[tylermo]

The "what nots"? Like the missing stats for the Walrus? I guess that would be in the next printing of Monster and Treasure. Old Wally's in the phb. I think he can be had for 300-350 gp, but no stats for the riding walrus, the light war walrus, or the heavy war walrus. A player of mine was actually going to buy one.

[Arduin]

We are working on the cover of the next printing now. There will not be any major changes or additions. It will be 144 page etc etc.

I'm going to look at the SR as I think that needed clarification, weapon weights, and what nots. Peter has been putting in grammar corrections etc.

Thanks!
Steve

Yes, the SR needs clarification. If done a certain, the SR levels of any currently SR monsters would have to be adjusted.

[Dead Horse]

tylermo
Walrus is in the Monsters and Treasures of Ariehde

[tylermo]

So, some creatures in both M&T and M&T of A's Soell resistance might have to be adjusted? What about Classic Monsters? Just curious.

I've owned M&T of A for awhile, but never noticed the stats for the walrus. I'm checking that out at home tonight.

[Arduin]

So, some creatures in both M&T and M&T of A's Soell resistance might have to be adjusted? What about Classic Monsters? Just curious.

I've owned M&T of A for awhile, but never noticed the stats for the walrus. I'm checking that out at home tonight.

What I meant was, if they just make it so that everyone has SR 1 by default and use the Siege Engine rule (roll equal or greater than) THEN, all the monsters NOW in existence that have an SR rating will have to be upped by one in order to then be correct. ALSO, item creation rules have to be adjusted for making SR items and have to decide if SR stacks, etc.