Some thoughts on C&C's version of 'Wish'...

[treant_on_fire]

Here are some thoughts I had about C&C's Wish right after reading it. Now I'll be the first to admit I'm not extremely familiar with the crunch of C&C yet, so if I made a mistake feel free to let me know.

Also, I can only compare this 'Wish' to the other versions I know, which are D&D 3.5's and Pathfinder's. If anyone else has comparison notes to make based on other versions, I'd be glad if they shared them.

O.k, so... In D&D 3.5, Wish has a cost in gold and an XP cost. In Pathfinder, they removed XP costs from all spells (something I much agree with for 3.X) and simply made the cost in gold five times more expensive, which still makes it a spell you won't be casting nonchalantly.

Castles & Crusades uses aging as the cost. I think it's one good way to do it, in the sense that if a character gets to cast that level of spell, he obviously is playing a long-term campaign, so the cost in years can be meaningful... If you're human.

Looking at it, elf Wizards can laugh their way to Wish-spamming. O.o (It's a fixed amount of years, which is a joke to the longer-lived races.)

I'd put a gold cost to casting it, but obviously it wouldn't fit with C&C's version of the spell in which you can actually create treasure. The cost would cancel out the effect or vice-versa.

One option would be the XP cost. While I HATE XP costs in 3.X, a system where all the classes advance together at the same time, I'm fine with it in a system where characters are not expected to be all at the same level. But XP is kind of hard to come by in C&C compared to more recent versions of D&D. I imagine making the cost much lower by comparison would balance it out, but that'd be a lot of math and balancing to do.

In the end, I think the best way to do this still requires some math, but not as much. If it was based on actual life expectancy, then that might make more sense for elves to take the spell as seriously as humans do. Therefore, by doing some quick math with the Racial Ages table, you can check what 1 to 3 years of human life would equal to for your elf, dwarf or other longer-lived race.

Any thoughts?

[Go0gleplex]

If I really had to make some sort of "balancing" determination, plus make it less desirable to cast wish that I already do (twisting wishes doesn't even do justice to some of the things I come up with *evil grin*)...I think I'd change it to costing a CON point. After all...magic of reality altering power just has to be extremely taxing on the magic-abuser casting it, no?

[treant_on_fire]

If I really had to make some sort of "balancing" determination, plus make it less desirable to cast wish that I already do (twisting wishes doesn't even do justice to some of the things I come up with *evil grin*)...I think I'd change it to costing a CON point. After all...magic of reality altering power just has to be extremely taxing on the magic-abuser casting it, no?

That's a bit TOO harsh, isn't it? I wouldn't want players to NEVER cast it either... O_o

About the balancing part, it doesn't need to be super balanced, but my point was that basically this spell pretty much says "If you're an elf or a dwarf, you can just ignore the cost".

[MormonYoYoMan]

How about charging the long-lived species the amount of years it would cost a human - in percentiles? If it cost a human 10 years of a 70-year life span, then it should cost an elf 1/7 an elf's life span.

What's an elf's life span? Hey, it's YOUR world. You tell me!

[treant_on_fire]

How about charging the long-lived species the amount of years it would cost a human - in percentiles? If it cost a human 10 years of a 70-year life span, then it should cost an elf 1/7 an elf's life span.

What's an elf's life span? Hey, it's YOUR world. You tell me!

Well yes, that's what I said in my opening post. :p

[MormonYoYoMan]

How about charging the long-lived species the amount of years it would cost a human - in percentiles? If it cost a human 10 years of a 70-year life span, then it should cost an elf 1/7 an elf's life span.

What's an elf's life span? Hey, it's YOUR world. You tell me!

Well yes, that's what I said in my opening post. :p

Good point, but it doesn't count because I wasn't paying attention.

[Arduin]

Also, I can only compare this 'Wish' to the other versions I know, which are D&D 3.5's and Pathfinder's. If anyone else has comparison notes to make based on other versions, I'd be glad if they shared them.

Looking at it, elf Wizards can laugh their way to Wish-spamming. O.o (It's a fixed amount of years, which is a joke to the longer-lived races.)

1st Ed AD&D, a Wish aged the caster 3 years. That was it. No racial mods. There ARE advantages to having a long life span. Makes no sense to change it per race. 3 years is 3 years.

[treant_on_fire]

Also, I can only compare this 'Wish' to the other versions I know, which are D&D 3.5's and Pathfinder's. If anyone else has comparison notes to make based on other versions, I'd be glad if they shared them.

Looking at it, elf Wizards can laugh their way to Wish-spamming. O.o (It's a fixed amount of years, which is a joke to the longer-lived races.)

1st Ed AD&D, a Wish aged the caster 3 years. That was it. No racial mods. There ARE advantages to having a long life span. Makes no sense to change it per race. 3 years is 3 years.

Well, it's magic. If you want to talk about sense, this can be argued. The cost of the spell is that it ages the body. While story-wise the official way works, it's not a stretch to also imagine the spell could age a body accordingly. My point is, while you might prefer the official version (which is just as good as my opinion) I don't agree that it would make no sense. Both could have arguments in their favor.

Also, a long life-span is its own reward! :p But what's more, even with the added years to the cost of a Wish spell, the elf will still live much longer than a human. It doesn't make elves live as long as humans or anything like that.

As it stands, basically elves can cast Wish as if it was Magic Missile. ESPECIALLY if you use C&C's aging table for elves.

[Arduin]

As it stands, basically elves can cast Wish as if it was Magic Missile. ESPECIALLY if you use C&C's aging table for elves.

Sure, if they want to die a lot quicker than normal. They'd only live a few years if they did.

[treant_on_fire]

As it stands, basically elves can cast Wish as if it was Magic Missile. ESPECIALLY if you use C&C's aging table for elves.

Sure, if they want to die a lot quicker than normal. They'd only live a few years if they did.

Middle Age: 500
Old Age: 1000
Venerable Age: 1500
Age Limit: +6d%

Wish can cost 1 or 3 years of age, depending on the Constitution roll.

I'm just going to respectfully disagree with you and let the chart be my statement.

[Arduin]

I'm just going to respectfully disagree with you and let the chart be my statement.

Cast a couple times a week and do the math... Pretty simple.

[treant_on_fire]

I'm just going to respectfully disagree with you and let the chart be my statement.

Cast a couple times a week and do the math... Pretty simple.

O.k, I'll take you up on it. Heck, let's do better than a couple of times a week! Let's say an elf wizard casts it daily, which is a stretch. Let's say he NEVER gets any downtime in that year, another stretch. Let's say he misses his Con Save every single time, a third stretch.

Estimation:
3x7(days in a week)= 21
21x4(weeks in a month)= 84
84x12(months in a year)= 1008

Even with all these unlikely added-up circumstances to create a worst-case scenario, the elf would age about 1000 years in a year of adventuring. That means that unless the Elf was close to Middle Age or older when he was able to start casting it, he'd be Old (but not Venerable yet!).

Now, a smart elf will simply cast it to increase his Con the first few times, thus ensuring that he'd rarely miss his Con Save after a few ability increases! So pretty quickly we can say that the 3 years cost will become a 1 year cost instead. Under those circumstances, we're talking a cost of under 400 years in a year of casting, MAYBE taking the elf to Middle Age. And again, that's under the scenario that he did cast it every day.

[Arduin]

Let's say he misses his Con Save every single time, a third stretch.

Estimation:
3x7(days in a week)= 21
21x4(weeks in a month)= 84
84x12(months in a year)= 1008

Even with all these unlikely added-up circumstances to create a worst-case scenario, the elf would age about 1000 years in a year of adventuring.

Umm, if he MADE his con check half the time he'd age 2,016 years, if cast 3X/day...

[treant_on_fire]

Let's say he misses his Con Save every single time, a third stretch.

Estimation:
3x7(days in a week)= 21
21x4(weeks in a month)= 84
84x12(months in a year)= 1008

Even with all these unlikely added-up circumstances to create a worst-case scenario, the elf would age about 1000 years in a year of adventuring.

Umm, if he MADE his con check half the time he'd age 2,016 years, if cast 3X/day...

:p

Well, two things. First, in your example we can average it at 2 years per casting (half the time's 1, the other half's 3). Well in this case... I mean come on, in your example the guy has to cast it 3 times a day, 7 days a week, for a whole year. Seriously??? >_<
If you bring this up because of my Magic Missile comparison, yes that was a bit of a joke/exaggeration. Doesn't change the fact that the cost for Wish is a bit broken. It costs a lot for humans and nothing for elves.

Also don't forget, if our elf casts Wish to boost his Con the first few times... Yep, I don't think he'll be missing many Con rolls! We can probably make him succeed way more often than half the time. In which case your 3 times a day would have succeeding rolls and it amounts to about the same result as my 'once a day failing every time', about 1000 years after a year of adventuring.

...

Wow, this argument is so nerdy... xD

Anyway, for Wish to start really having an effect on an elf in any significant way, he has to spam it even more often than what should be normal for any D&D game. That alone means it needs a balancing factor. I'll use the 'age percentage' option. If the 3 years works for you and most C&C players, that's fine too.

Actually, if anyone can share some actual gameplay related to the Wish spell (any edition/version), that'd be awesome. I wouldn't mind anecdotes either, even if they have nothing to do with the balance of the spell. Just "That one time my Wizard cast Wish and..."

[alcyone]

In any case, the things you may typically wish for are enumerated in the spell description, and aren't too outrageous.

[Go0gleplex]

If I really had to make some sort of "balancing" determination, plus make it less desirable to cast wish that I already do (twisting wishes doesn't even do justice to some of the things I come up with *evil grin*)...I think I'd change it to costing a CON point. After all...magic of reality altering power just has to be extremely taxing on the magic-abuser casting it, no?

That's a bit TOO harsh, isn't it? I wouldn't want players to NEVER cast it either... O_o

About the balancing part, it doesn't need to be super balanced, but my point was that basically this spell pretty much says "If you're an elf or a dwarf, you can just ignore the cost".

I don't mind harsh. But that aside...rarely does a wish turn out as the player intends should they happen across one. It's a spell I've never allowed a player to find...and don't intend to without a REALLY good reason or one hell of a story arc. I've just that mean.

[alcyone]

[It's a spell I've never allowed a player to find...and don't intend to without a REALLY good reason or one hell of a story arc. I've just that mean.

True, that's the ultimate balancing factor.

It's a bit worrisome that it says a +1 permanent attribute boost carries little danger of misfortune. But even a party of people with all 20s in their attributes can be challenged (and may wish for the old days when they fought simpler foes). You could also rule that a +1 is no problem, but wish number 2 for ANOTHER +1 will cause all sorts of trouble. Never mind that you can't wish for a +1 anyway; they don't exist in game reality, just "I wish I was stronger". Stronger smelling perhaps?

Wishing for 15k gp items all of the time could be a bother too. But they could do things they weren't intended to also.

I don't know, I can think of lots of things to say to make it sound less overpowered, but without the xp limiting factor or something heavier than age loss, it's pretty broken for something you can wake up in the morning and prepare every day. And never mind the penalties for doing it EVERY day, they don't, just the days when they are adventuring in your game.

[alcyone]

In AD&D besides the fact this spell would take 2 and a half hours to memorize, the DMG made a limit on ability score increases for Wish; scores above 16 could only be reached at a rate of 1/10th of a point per wish. I'd also not allow wishing on days when the character is not being actively played: "I make a wish for more ability points every day for the next 2 weeks between adventures."

Finally, those from whom the spell may be learned might WISH that power hungry wizards just leave them alone.

[treant_on_fire]

I'd also not allow wishing on days when the character is not being actively played: "I make a wish for more ability points every day for the next 2 weeks between adventures."

Agreed.

Anyway, I know I'll be using the 'percentage' rule... That'll be my way of balancing it.

Other than that, I wouldn't mind reading some stories of uses of Wish gone right or wrong (or just plain weird)!

[Dead Horse]

In AD&D there were level limits for nonhuman casters.. the 3 year cost was ok because only humans could get high enough level to cast it.
Little nuances like that are lost when you drop level limits.

[treant_on_fire]

In AD&D there were level limits for nonhuman casters.. the 3 year cost was ok because only humans could get high enough level to cast it.
Little nuances like that are lost when you drop level limits.

Yeah but don't talk about level limits for non-humans as if it's a shame to have lost it! xD The racial level limits rule is something I've always disliked as an idea. I much prefer the later versions that simply made player races balanced with each other. I mean, how hard is it to simply give the Human race something good too? (Extra Feat and skill points, Extra Prime Attribute, you name it...)

[Dead Horse]

I liked the level limits myself. Gave humans an edge. The newer games with unlimited advancement make it hard to believe humans could dominate a world much less not get wiped out by uber high level nigh immortal elves.

[Lord Dynel]

In AD&D there were level limits for nonhuman casters.. the 3 year cost was ok because only humans could get high enough level to cast it.
Little nuances like that are lost when you drop level limits.

I liked the level limits myself. Gave humans an edge. The newer games with unlimited advancement make it hard to believe humans could dominate a world much less not get wiped out by uber high level nigh immortal elves.

Which is pretty dang funny, because nowadays it's talked about like it's the devil! They served their purpose in the day. I never had a problem with them and I strictly enforced them. In one single game, which didn't even last long enough to matter, a couple of my players pissed and moaned about them. So I let them go, lifted the restriction. Humans got +2 on all their saving throw rolls as compensation. My human PCs didn't seem to mind the lifting of level limits at all.

And yeah, I agree DH, it makes human-dominated world hard to believe.

I'm not opposed to level limits, nor do I miss them. I simply think that, back then, they were a good balancing factor for the races.

Sorry for the derailment!

On topic, I agree with treant's logic. Not that Arduin's was bad, but a little extreme. And I agree with treant on the Con boosting. The elf's first, say...40 wishes will probably go to Con boosts, which would guarantee no failed saves in anything ever Con related again. But I digress.

First off, if any CK is allowing the casting of a Wish, even once a day, without "careful considerations," he or she may want to take a sabbatical from behind the CK screen! But yeah, I don't see a problem with an XP penalty, because that would put things on an even playing field. Maybe even a monetary requirement too (or in place of the XP, if the CK is feeling generous). Honestly, though, this - to me - comes across as one of those meta-thinking scenarios. Like the ones I used to read on the Char Op forums over at WotC - they present certain situations where a given character can beat another in one round, or the best way to utilize the some obscure feat or magic item. I look at them and chuckle because they talk about the character like the DM will have no say whatsoever in any decisions that are being made with the character in question - he'll get whatever item or spell or feat he wants to build the character just so. Then, the crapkicker, is they'll talk down to anyone who mentions that the choice is up to the DM - the proponents of such behavior will call those types of DMs bad or ones that just want to "gimp" a PC.

I don't say this for those reasons, as I'm not trying to insinuate that any posters here are either cheesy optimizers like that nor am I saying that any of you are hard-ass CKs. It just reminds me of one of those "impossible scenarios" that need a lot to happen before it can ever see the light of day. I wholeheartedly agree with the XP cost - that will prevent all those castings. Or better yet, after the first week or so, the character gets some very unwanted attention that wants the caster's power...

[Go0gleplex]

Other than that, I wouldn't mind reading some stories of uses of Wish gone right or wrong (or just plain weird)!

Well, there was the enevitable "wish for all the gold I can carry" which got them a backpack full of gold...and the guards showing up with it.

There was also the "I wish to be strong enough to lift an ox". farmer and his ox showed up soon after...and the PC just had to lift the ox, at which point his STR reverted back to normal since he had fufilled the conditions of his wish. He had lifted an ox.

Then there was the "I wish to be one level higher"...since it was a ring and used in an inn, the user ended up in the inn's attic...one level higher than where they had started.

The intelligent sword wish was fun too. The sword became a super genius, but that's all it did besides speak and refused to let such a moronic person like the wisher use it.

I'm a real bugger when it comes to wishes.

[treant_on_fire]

Other than that, I wouldn't mind reading some stories of uses of Wish gone right or wrong (or just plain weird)!

Well, there was the enevitable "wish for all the gold I can carry" which got them a backpack full of gold...and the guards showing up with it.

There was also the "I wish to be strong enough to lift an ox". farmer and his ox showed up soon after...and the PC just had to lift the ox, at which point his STR reverted back to normal since he had fufilled the conditions of his wish. He had lifted an ox.

Then there was the "I wish to be one level higher"...since it was a ring and used in an inn, the user ended up in the inn's attic...one level higher than where they had started.

The intelligent sword wish was fun too. The sword became a super genius, but that's all it did besides speak and refused to let such a moronic person like the wisher use it.

I'm a real bugger when it comes to wishes.

I don't think I would have sent the guards with the gold, seems to me like the caster worded it the right way... I guess it depends on how you see 'Wish'.

The ox lifting bit was GENIUS. Made me smile!

I really liked the Inn 'level up' one too, because what would it even mean in-game to ask to be 'a level up'? The request was a bit meta-gamey, so well done!

The sword was funny, the caster got what he asked for but didn't take into account the sword would then have to have a personality and he didn't cover that in his casting. Nice.

[KaiserKris]

In my game world, you cannot ask for the same Wish twice, no matter what the source of the Wish is. It's just a fundamental rule of the universe.

Which I think nicely limits Wish-spamming.

The other thing is that any being who is capable of casting a Wish is going to get some serious attention from powerful beings. A pit fiend or glabrezu, after all, possesses the ability to grant Wishes, and ones that do not age a mortal either. Of course, the same beings could simply understand the caster as a mortal threat to their ambitions and target them for destruction ...

[treant_on_fire]

In my game world, you cannot ask for the same Wish twice, no matter what the source of the Wish is. It's just a fundamental rule of the universe.

Elegant solution!

[Sir Ironside]

Just make wish a percentage rather than a hard number. Using the base of the Human venerable age 3 days out of 70 is 4.3%. (.043 is not exact as it has many more decimal places than that, but using just .043 works out OK.) Just times the venerable age, of other races by 4.3% and you get an even age reduction for using wish. This one little house-rule doesn't unbalance anything else in the book.

Human: Venerable ( 70 X .043 = 3.01 round down to 3)
Dwarf: Venerable (550 X .043 = 23.65 round up to 24)
Elf: Venerable (1500 X .043 = 64.5 round up to 65)
Gnome: Venerable (350 X .043 = 15.05 round down to 15)
Half-Orc: Venerable: (60 X .043 = 2.58 round up to 3) Sucks to be Half-Orc, but when isn't it.
Half-Elf: Venerable (200 X .043 = 8.6 round up to 9)
Halfling: Venerable (100 X .043 = 4.3 round down to 4)

Wish Spell Age Cost Table

Years are added to your age. If the wish takes you past your venerable age, you either just grant the spell as is, then die. (Unless it is a wish for longer life.) Or, you still die and the spell is not cast, because the cost comes before the result. Personally I like option 2.

Human:......+3
Dwarf:......+24
Elf:...........+65
Gnome:....+15
Half-Orc:.....+3
Half-Elf:......+9
Halfling:......+4

The nice thing using a percentage is you can scale it to any other race/monster that is smart enough to use the wish spell. Where you get the age for other kinds of races/monsters I don't know, I guess Google it.

In any case Wish Spells should be hard to get, IMO.

[Arduin]

In AD&D there were level limits for nonhuman casters.. the 3 year cost was ok because only humans could get high enough level to cast it.
Little nuances like that are lost when you drop level limits.

By 2nd Ed the cost was 5 years and the vast majority of games had dropped the racial restrictions. Nothing bad happened. On paper it looks like a potential problem. IRL gaming, no..

[KaiserKris]

I wonder if one could make two spells out of the "Wish" spell- the first being a spell with the ability, essentially, to mimic any other spell on the spell list, create certain types of magical items or perhaps resurrect a few allies. This spell would be available to characters of high level. Say, perhaps that this spell is the result of millennia of magical investigation in creating a "safer" version of the Wish spell. Make it expensive in material components, maybe also have a year or so in aging.

Then there is the real Wish spell, which is completely open-ended and can only be accessed through the intervention of powerful outsiders- which can fundamentally alter reality, but at a high and often unknowable cost. This also makes the blandishments of those beings (various types of jinn, demons, devils) more and more tempting.