Color Spray question

[treant_on_fire]

"All creatures with 5 HD or greater may make a Wisdom saving throw to shake off the color spray."

So what then, all beings with 4 HD or less don't even get a saving throw??? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[ThrorII]

Reading the text (from the 3rd printing), I would say there are three interpretations:

1. The last sentance of the spell description ("Creatures of the same level or HD as the caster, and all creatures with 5 HD or greater may make a wisdom saving throw to shake off the color spray.") is a typo.

The spell shows "save: wis negates", therefore, ALL creatures get a Wisdom (mental, for monsters) save, regardless of level.

2. The "save: wis negates" only applies to creatures of equal level to the caster, or 5th level/5HD or above.

3. The text is all scewed up, and the spell does not affect you at all if you are either a)equal level to the caster, or b) 5th level/HD or higher.

#2 would be inconsistant with virtually all other spells, as nearly all give everyone a chance to save (for either full or reduced penalty).

#3 requires you to throw out the text completely, and make up something else.

I think #1 is correct. Everyone gets a wis save to negate it. Ignore the equal level/5HD sentance.

[treant_on_fire]

Everyone gets a wis save to negate it. Ignore the equal level/5HD sentance.

Oh, I would have anyway! Thanks for the clarification though, I agree with you, must have been a typo!

[tylermo]

Maybe another thing for the Trolls to look at before the 5th printing becomes a reality? I'll try to pass it along, and see if it passes the smell test.

[Lord Dynel]

I have to play Devil's advocate here....can't resist....

Okay, it's a 1st level illusionist spell. Meaning, everything is getting a saving throw (or almost everything). And it affects 2-5 creatures. At early levels, it's a life saver, an "Oh Sh!t" button that could save the parties bacon if things go real bad. So, for the first level or two, it's a good spell but not overpowered, at least in my opinion, since it has a cap on how many creatures it can affect and their HD (1 or 2 HD max for a 1st or 2nd level illusionist and a d4 + 1 or 2).

By 3rd or 4th level, it's respectable but so are spells like Hypnotic Pattern, which will be able to entrance upwards of 9 HD worth of creatures at this level. Also at this point, the bigger monsters the PCs fight are going to be 5 HD, or slightly more, meaning some still won't be affected - and the foes that can be (the 3 or 4 HD variety will be getting a saving throw a lot of the time. And even if the bigguns' fail their save, they're only going to be incapacitated for one round. The 3-4 HD ones slightly more than that. Going back to Hypnotic Pattern, the creatures can be "heedless of all else" for as long as the illusionist concentrates.

Then, there's 5th level. This is the height of the spell. Level-based save restrictions are lifted since the illusionst is 5th level. The spell becomes (and probably has since maybe 3rd level) the "minion stopper" as all lower levels are now succumbing to the illusionist's power. Well, maybe. If he get's his spell off before the Wizard fireballs the place. Or the Druid calls lightning. Beyond 5th, it's still useful, though most everything will be rolling a save against the effects, will probably save a decent portion of the time, and the effect is very short.

Most importantly, this is an illusionist-only spell in C&C. This is one of their true offensive spells and weakening it weakens the illusionist a little (in my opinion). The "no save" clause is only viable in a very small window, after which its no longer an advantage. By mid-levels it'll be nearly gone, unless the CK throws up some minion-level creatures as fodder (goblins, orcs, etc) at which point the illusionist will once again be able to shine with this spell, especially if he's competing against another spellcaster. Illusionists can be powerhouses but often the adjudication of illusions can be a little on the "tame" side by a CK, leading a lesser powered illusionist. Color Spray is one of those illusionist spells that are hard mechanics, so it's power isn't derived from the CK's adjudication.

This is my take on the spell. I don't think it's a typo, since both the 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D versions are worded the same (though they go up to the level of the caster or 6 HD). I think the spell is written as intended - it gives lower level illusionists a chance for a heroic moment, if necessary and it keeps the spell somewhat viable at higher levels. It's just not one of those "all or nothing" spells and that seems to be causing some issues.

Before changing anything, I'll suggest what used to be suggested a lot back when I came to these boards and threw up suggestions for change - play it as-is, first. See how it works. If it needs to be changed, then by all means, change it. But I would suggest trying is as-written first. It may not be that much of a problem as you think it might. That is if you haven't used it in game already, then please disregard the above statement!

[treant_on_fire]

I have to play Devil's advocate here....can't resist....

Okay, it's a 1st level illusionist spell. Meaning, everything is getting a saving throw (or almost everything). And it affects 2-5 creatures. At early levels, it's a life saver, an "Oh Sh!t" button that could save the parties bacon if things go real bad. So, for the first level or two, it's a good spell but not overpowered, at least in my opinion, since it has a cap on how many creatures it can affect and their HD (1 or 2 HD max for a 1st or 2nd level illusionist and a d4 + 1 or 2).

By 3rd or 4th level, it's respectable but so are spells like Hypnotic Pattern, which will be able to entrance upwards of 9 HD worth of creatures at this level. Also at this point, the bigger monsters the PCs fight are going to be 5 HD, or slightly more, meaning some still won't be affected - and the foes that can be (the 3 or 4 HD variety will be getting a saving throw a lot of the time. And even if the bigguns' fail their save, they're only going to be incapacitated for one round. The 3-4 HD ones slightly more than that. Going back to Hypnotic Pattern, the creatures can be "heedless of all else" for as long as the illusionist concentrates.

Then, there's 5th level. This is the height of the spell. Level-based save restrictions are lifted since the illusionst is 5th level. The spell becomes (and probably has since maybe 3rd level) the "minion stopper" as all lower levels are now succumbing to the illusionist's power. Well, maybe. If he get's his spell off before the Wizard fireballs the place. Or the Druid calls lightning. Beyond 5th, it's still useful, though most everything will be rolling a save against the effects, will probably save a decent portion of the time, and the effect is very short.

Most importantly, this is an illusionist-only spell in C&C. This is one of their true offensive spells and weakening it weakens the illusionist a little (in my opinion). The "no save" clause is only viable in a very small window, after which its no longer an advantage. By mid-levels it'll be nearly gone, unless the CK throws up some minion-level creatures as fodder (goblins, orcs, etc) at which point the illusionist will once again be able to shine with this spell, especially if he's competing against another spellcaster. Illusionists can be powerhouses but often the adjudication of illusions can be a little on the "tame" side by a CK, leading a lesser powered illusionist. Color Spray is one of those illusionist spells that are hard mechanics, so it's power isn't derived from the CK's adjudication.

This is my take on the spell. I don't think it's a typo, since both the 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D versions are worded the same (though they go up to the level of the caster or 6 HD). I think the spell is written as intended - it gives lower level illusionists a chance for a heroic moment, if necessary and it keeps the spell somewhat viable at higher levels. It's just not one of those "all or nothing" spells and that seems to be causing some issues.

Before changing anything, I'll suggest what used to be suggested a lot back when I came to these boards and threw up suggestions for change - play it as-is, first. See how it works. If it needs to be changed, then by all means, change it. But I would suggest trying is as-written first. It may not be that much of a problem as you think it might. That is if you haven't used it in game already, then please disregard the above statement!

Except if we were to take it that way, all that'd be needed to wipe a whole starting party is a bunch of 1st level Illusionists. Seriously, all they need to do is win initiative... And that's it. Party wiped.

(Takes a moment to go read something real quick...)

O.k, just checked 'Sleep'. It works automatically if the target doesn't have enough HD to resist, but the target also wakes up if someone hits them while they were sleeping. So I'd use sleep caused by Color Spray the same way.

[Lord Dynel]

Except if we were to take it that way, all that'd be needed to wipe a whole starting party is a bunch of 1st level Illusionists. Seriously, all they need to do is win initiative... And that's it. Party wiped.

(Takes a moment to go read something real quick...)

O.k, just checked 'Sleep'. It works automatically if the target doesn't have enough HD to resist, but the target also wakes up if someone hits them while they were sleeping. So I'd use sleep caused by Color Spray the same way.

As for the party of illusionsts, you're right. Poof! Game over. But what are the odds of encountering a whole party of illusionists? A diabolical CK might do something like that, yes. Or perhaps it could be something to further a plot (like when the party needs to be kidnapped to progress the adventure ). I'm thinking that if the CK really wants the party dead, he's got a lot more options at his disposal than color spray (like explosive runes, for example ).

And yes, you're right about sleep, so the wizard has the same capability of throat-slitting with that spell as the illusionist. Again, I would suggest using it as-is before making any adjustments. You may find that it's not as big an issue as you perceive.

[Arduin]

"Creatures of 2 HD or less are struck unconscious for 2d4 rounds; creatures ..." (latest PHB)

Based on how tough the spell was in 1st Ed and this version being similar I'd say that the trolls intended it to be so. But, like anything else, house rule if too strong for your game.