I Stand Before You In Shame

[redwullf]

I have spent years bashing 4th Edition of "The World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game," but have never actually played it, or really studied its rules. Having been a fan of 3.x and (now) Pathfinder, I simply jumped on the D&D 4e Hate-Bandwagon without ever actually giving it a taste.

I have always been a devout advocate of D&D and those who make the game - at least since the original Red Box. I've played D&D (B/X), AD&D 1e, and 2e (both extensively, for many years), and of course 3x/PFRPG, currently. Despite this dedication to the original game, I never even gave 4e a glance.

With "D&D Next" around the corner, I thought it would only be reasonable to at least give 4e a fair shake, to say that I've tried it, played it. The Essentials Red Box, though out of print, is under 20 bucks from sources like B&N and ThinkGeek, so I ordered one and I'm waiting for it to arrive.

At least, if I still "hate" it, I'll now be able to hate it as someone who has actually played the bloody game.

Note: This has nothing to do with C&C - I'm an OSR player at heart, but my primary gaming group is not. C&C would be my weapon of choice, but the group prefers PFRPG - so that's where we're at right now (fortunately, I run a family-game of pure C&C goodness on the side for the girlfriend and our collective brood). This post is all about the "current" or modern versions of the game.

[Julian Grimm]

This is why I am careful in my criticisms of anything. I have found that I usually bash something only to end up liking it. As far as 4e goes, I have played it and did enjoy myself. While not my game of choice I would play it again and maybe get some of the material if I found it cheap enough. And yes, I will give 5e a fair shake before making any final decisions on it.

[concobar]

Personally I like the 4e essentials books much better than the earlier 4e stuff. The essentials rules are not as great of a leap away from earlier editions as are the core 4e material. Must be something in the air because i recently went out and acquired the full run of Pathfinder core books. I may run a PF campaign.

5E may be the best thing since sliced bread or not but I have gotten of an age that I am starting to consider sticking to one rules system, supported by a company or not, a good thing.

[TheMetal1]

With "D&D Next" around the corner, I thought it would only be reasonable to at least give 4e a fair shake, to say that I've tried it, played it. The Essentials Red Box, though out of print, is under 20 bucks from sources like B&N and ThinkGeek, so I ordered one and I'm waiting for it to arrive.At least, if I still "hate" it, I'll now be able to hate it as someone who has actually played the bloody game.

BRAVO!

I'm a big fan of C&C, but like yourself My current games are Pathfinder, Tunnels & Trolls and a homebrew Victorian Era game formerly known as Victopia. I was retisent on the whole 4th edition as well and stayed away from it, but when the essentials came out, I figured I need to at least take a look at it. So I got all those, alogn with a few modules and then I picked up the box sets as they rolled out. I liked how it was all presented, especially the red box, which I've had a chance to run several times (the first half of the adventure anyway) and while different, it wasn't that far of a leap and I certainly enjoyed it.

Glad you decided to at least make the decision for yourself!

[redwullf]

Thank you for the supportive comments. I'm actually looking forward to giving 4e a try. Like I said in my initial post, I'm a "way back" D&D loyalist, so it's only reasonable to try it.

Also, for those of you who keep up with the Dungeon Bastard, he had this to say about edition wars:

"When I sit down at a table to game, I have two questions. Does this game have dungeons? Does this game have dragons? Great! Then I want to play this game."

Perfectly stated.

[Go0gleplex]

We tried to schedule your flogging, but the soonest available time was more than 2 yrs out...which was a bit unreasonable, so you escape this time.

[MormonYoYoMan]

We tried to schedule your flogging, but the soonest available time was more than 2 yrs out...which was a bit unreasonable, so you escape this time.

Dang it! I had the ticket concession!

[Relaxo]

well said.
good show.
:p

[concobar]

Thank you for the supportive comments. I'm actually looking forward to giving 4e a try. Like I said in my initial post, I'm a "way back" D&D loyalist, so it's only reasonable to try it.

Also, for those of you who keep up with the Dungeon Bastard, he had this to say about edition wars:

"When I sit down at a table to game, I have two questions. Does this game have dungeons? Does this game have dragons? Great! Then I want to play this game."

Perfectly stated.

I think you will enjoy essentials 4e very much especially if you have a good DM and a party that likes to RP. Of course just about any game is good f you have those two things so ....
I have been the hugest supporter of 4e on these and other boards for years now but have in the last year or so grown a slight bit disillusioned with the hectic release of splat books and sad to say the sameness of the core 4e classes. Essentials 4E fixed the issues I have with the 4e game and I highly recomend it. At 20~USD per essentials book you really cant beat the price either.

I have been spending time with my AD&D/C&C/LL-AO game and a L5R 4e group though with the purchase of the PF core books I am working up a campaign to give that a run. Many of the folks in my gaming group were introduced to the game by 3.x and have been clamouring for a PF campaign.

Trying new games is good i think.

[finarvyn]

Personally, I find 4E more fun to play that it is to run. As DM I have to juggle too many details in 4E, but as players (when I only have to focus on a single character) it's a lot of fun to tinker with the options and choices.

I really wish there had been a streamlined 4E (even more so than Essentials) that looked and played more like C&C. Remember that the OD&D Men & Magic book was only 36 pages (9 sheets of paper printed two sided and folded in half) and something like that for 4E would have been amazing.

[tylermo]

It takes more than just having "dungeons" and "dragons" for me. I have to like the system itself. Nice art is fine too, but ultimately it comes down to the rules set. Name brand takes a back seat for me.

[redwullf]

I think you will enjoy essentials 4e very much especially if you have a good DM and a party that likes to RP. Of course just about any game is good f you have those two things so ....
I have been the hugest supporter of 4e on these and other boards for years now but have in the last year or so grown a slight bit disillusioned with the hectic release of splat books and sad to say the sameness of the core 4e classes. Essentials 4E fixed the issues I have with the 4e game and I highly recomend it. At 20~USD per essentials book you really cant beat the price either.

I have been spending time with my AD&D/C&C/LL-AO game and a L5R 4e group though with the purchase of the PF core books I am working up a campaign to give that a run. Many of the folks in my gaming group were introduced to the game by 3.x and have been clamouring for a PF campaign.

Trying new games is good i think.

You'll hear no sass from me toward any of the versions you mentioned, including PF. This is my primary game group's system, and we're all pretty fond of it. Since I'm the "persistent" GM, however, I've been clamoring for something simpler (C&C) because of all the book keeping and prep-time a PF campaign requires. So far, I don't see us moving out of PF any time soon, but I use my "little group" (girlfriend and our collective brood) to play other versions - primarily C&C at this time.

Long story short, versions can elicit passionate debate among gamers (historically, myself included), but I'm trying to be more version agnostic these days (or at least version "open-minded").

[Andred of Albans]

I was always old school - I loved 1e D&D, liked 2e a lot too (ran a campaign that straddled both editions and loved every minute of it for over 15 years!) I never got into 3e (much less 4e). I appreciated the update in the mechanics (AC finally made sense!) but I was never big on prestige classes or overly complex modifier spam. Too many rules and exceptions to keep straight. I bought a few of the books but only played a few times and never ran the beast.

For my C&C campaign, I pulled the proficiency system out of 2e whole cloth and inserted it into C&C (it meshes quite well) which made the Complete PC books from my 2nd edition shelf usable again.

I really like C&C - it combines the smooth mechanics of the basic d20 system with the rules lite, open end style of 1e/2e. C&C, in my humble opinion, is the real successor to 1e D&D as Gygax envisioned it. It also meshes with my game setting very well without requiring major rewrites, always a plus in my book.

I played 4e once, at a store demo. It was fun but it wasn't D&D - it was... I guess it felt like a computer game sans PC. Okay, I guess and I see why younger gamers might like it but not my cup of tea.

[redwullf]

I played 4e once, at a store demo. It was fun but it wasn't D&D - it was... I guess it felt like a computer game sans PC. Okay, I guess and I see why younger gamers might like it but not my cup of tea.

That seems to be the single most common complaint I've seen about 4e, that it plays like an MMO without the computer. I'm still open-minded about it though - after all, I've been playing WoW for over 5 years, so something "playing like WoW" is not going to resonate as a bad thing with me.

[Arduin]

I played 4e once, at a store demo. It was fun but it wasn't D&D - it was... I guess it felt like a computer game sans PC. Okay, I guess and I see why younger gamers might like it but not my cup of tea.

One of its designers already revealed that was the goal. Moving towards a video game experience.

[Julian Grimm]

Whether it was designed for the MMO experience or not, I know I had fun playing and enjoyed the game. The only reason I did not buy any of the books was due tight finances. If I had the money I would have gotten the books and possibly ran a campaign. Personally, I don't care who designed it, the company behind it or for any of the minutiae we bring in before we play.

If I've learned one thing these past few years it is not to let your decisions be clouded by the grumblings or preconceived notions of others.

[Arduin]

Whether it was designed for the MMO experience or not, I know I had fun playing and enjoyed the game.

That wasn't my point. I was simply explaining that his impression was what the designers were aiming for. Not, the relative merits of designing for that purpose or, not...

[redwullf]

The "Red Box" arrived yesterday from ThinkGeek. Characters have been created following the step-by-step solo adventure in the Player's Book. Tonight we'll all sit down and complete the introductory adventure, which should get the PCs to level two.

My only grievance so far: Been trying to find a way to print out the powers (power cards, if you will) without becoming a D&D Insider subscriber. There will be much flipping through the books without print-outs of the powers and, despite my open-mindedness about trying any RPG, including 4E, I'm NOT open minded about adding a monthly subscription fee on top of an already costly hobby.

WotC should offer PDFs of each class's powers, even for a minute separate purchase, so they can be printed out on card stock. Or, they should NOT have discontinued the pre-printed power cards line and offered these for Essentials.

For "forcing" a subscription and not providing tools to simplify game-play experience: Strike 1.

[Julian Grimm]

Solution from the cheap gamer: I used index cards and wrote down what I needed.

[TheMetal1]

What Julian Grimm said...or

just copy and print on regular paper, cut them out and put them in cheap card sleeves. You can usually find a pack of 100 for around 1 to 2 dollars.

I haven't checked it out but I wonder how many people the box set was intended for as I suspect that is the official number of cards.

[redwullf]

Solution from the cheap gamer: I used index cards and wrote down what I needed.

This is exactly what I've started doing. /garrump

[mordrene]

so besides the card issue, howa 4e. i became a convert after redbox came along. as far as powers go i created a excell template and just print a page. i have 8 or 10 powers per sheet.

my only complaint for 4e is that once characters get to higher levels, they all seem the same. with powers, everyone is rolling a stat vs defence and doing 2w + stat damage. However, the system works for high fantasy campaign.

[redwullf]

so besides the card issue, howa 4e. i became a convert after redbox came along. as far as powers go i created a excell template and just print a page. i have 8 or 10 powers per sheet.

my only complaint for 4e is that once characters get to higher levels, they all seem the same. with powers, everyone is rolling a stat vs defence and doing 2w + stat damage. However, the system works for high fantasy campaign.

I imagine it would be utilities that really distinguish characters at high levels, because I see what you're saying about attack powers. Even at lower levels there's a general "consistency" among the classes when it comes to combat ability. In fact, one of the negatives I've ready from other players about 4e is that the classes are *too* balanced when compared to other RPGs. They're so balanced that the differences between them are largely cosmetic (in your head) than providing any real tactical variation. Like monsters, your classes fit like precision instruments into key roles (brute, soldier, artillery, etc).

Again, just what I've heard and not based on my own experience. I'll judge that when we play.

Being a grognard, of course, I prefer a little class imbalance. It's what made D&D (and now C&C) so tasty. Everyone has their "thing" that they shine in, their moment in the spotlight. When you overly balance classes, you take those happy moments away and spread them evenly among everyone at the table.

[concobar]

Again why I prefer essentials 4e to core 4e. character at will powers are so well balanced that there is little mechanical difference between them. I am a huge fan of role play and powers haveing neat fluff but have to admit that 4e core can feel very samey.