EV revisions or scrap it?

[dunbruha]

Are you kidding me? With the size of that book that's all the rules to encumbrance?

Perhaps I wll get some flak for saying so, but those DCC rules for encumbrance suck. You can be rules light in your approach, but how about some simple guidelines, or a table or two? That's too vague. I hate it.

~O

Such passion!

Obviously, everyone has an opinion, but there are some "simple guidelines", right there in that paragraph: "A character carrying a substantial ratio of his body weight is slowed to half speed. A character cannot carry more equipment than half his body weight." I agree that a listing of item weights (excluding basil) would be helpful, though.

I'm not saying the C&C encumbrance is bad, but I do like a simple system.

[tylermo]

It's a daunting task. If they change the current system radically, people might reject it totally. The last thing they want is to change EV in every new printing. Almost forgot. I need to look at the EV section. Better yet, somebody should post all of the associated paragraphs on the forums, and we can all pick it apart. Maybe it needs minor revisions, or clarifications. Maybe it should be left as is.

[Arduin]

It's a daunting task. If they change the current system radically, people might reject it totally. The last thing they want is to change EV in every new printing. Almost forgot. I need to look at the EV section. Better yet, somebody should post all of the associated paragraphs on the forums, and we can all pick it apart. Maybe it needs minor revisions, or clarifications. Maybe it should be left as is.

Yes, they should post the paragraphs. We can possibly look at rewriting to make clearer and easier to use.

[Newenglandjeff]

I would like them to rework the first two paragraphs on page 48 PHB. I have read it 100 times and it still seems that the second paragraph contravenes the first paragraph. I just ignore the second paragraph, and everything falls into place. I actually like the EV system (with a few tweeks of course).

[tylermo]

Jeff, I think you just nailed it. A new C&C player and I were reading that while making his Dwarven barbarian. I think we noticed the same thing. I need to pull that out before bed. I thought there was something. Wait a minute. I think I have 3rd printing phb on pdf. It should read the same as 4th printing. I'll copy and paste. Just a sec, guys.

[kreider204]

Does this help at all?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8951&hilit=encumbrance+errata

[tylermo]

This is from third printing, so I hope it's the same as fourth.

DETERMINING ENCUMBRANCE
Each character has an Encumbrance Rating (ER). The encumbrance rating
for a character has a base of 10. The base is then modified by the character’s
strength modifier, if any, to determine the character’s final ER. Characters with
strength or constitution as a prime attribute may also add +2 to their ER.
These bonuses for prime attributes stack, so a character with both strength
and constitution as prime would gain a +4 to their ER. The Encumbrance
Value (EV) of many items is located on the equipment list. When determining
the encumbrance of a character, add up the EVs of all the items carried and
compare this to the character’s ER.
There are five categories of encumbrance: none, light, moderate, heavy
and overburdened. The amount of equipment that can be carried and the
category into which the character’s encumbrance total falls is affected by the
character’s ER, determined above. The following chart indicates the amount
that can be carried and into which category the character’s total encumbrance
falls. No character can carry more than five times their ER.
ENCUMBRANCE CATEGORY Weight
None 0 to 1x ER
Light 1x ER to 2x ER
Moderate 2x ER to 3x ER
Heavy 3x ER to 4x ER
Overburdened 4x ER to 5x ER
For example, the ancient and wizened priest of Thoth, Memnon, has
strength of 7 and a -1 strength modifier. He also has constitution as one
of his three primes. As such, his ER is 11, due to the 10 base, modified
by -1 for his strength modifier and +2 for his constitution prime. On a
trip to an ancient burial ground to lay a soul properly to rest, Memnon
expects trouble so he is carrying a lot of material with him. His equipment’s
encumbrance values add up to 17. Memnon’s categories for encumbrance
are: none: 0 to 11, light: 12 to 22, moderate: 23 to 33, heavy: 34 to 44,
and overburdened: 45 to 55. With an EV total of 17, Memnon is lightly
encumbered and suffers the penalties for that category.
AD HOC ENCUMBRANCE
Encumbrance is a function of the size, weight and bulk of an object.
Encumbrance values for some common items are provided in the following
equipment list. But, it might come up during a game session that the Castle
Keeper must quickly determine the EV of an object that isn’t listed on the
equipment list. Due to that, rules of ad hoc EV determination are provided.
To ad hoc the EV for an item, a relatively quick system has been developed.
First, get a general idea of the dimensions of the object in feet and use the
largest of the dimensions as the starting EV. So a statue that was 5’x2’x1’ would
have an EV base of 5. After determining the EV base, add a +2 to that number
for every dimension that is greater than 1’. So, the 5’x2’x1’ statue would add
a +2 for the 2 feet dimension, giving it a final EV base of 7. If the item has
all of its dimensions as less than a foot, use a base EV of 1. Finally, the weight,
balance and materials the items are made up of should be factored in.
WEIGHT Modifier Weight Note (example)
Very Light -2 EV Under 1 lbs. total (feathers)
Light -1 EV Under 6 lbs. (cloth)
Heavy +3 EV Under 24 lbs. (steel)
Very Heavy +5 EV 25 lbs. and up (marble)

BULK Modifier Example
Balanced -1 EV Most Weapons
Bulky x2 EV Barrel, objects more than half-man sized
Formless -1 EV Cloth, objects with mutable forms
Narrow x1⁄2 EV Less than 2 inches in width
For example, a dagger would have a base EV of 2 (most daggers are about one
or two feet long and a few inches wide and deep), –1 EV due for their weight
(they usually don’t weigh more than a couple of pounds) giving them an EV of
1. Meanwhile, a 5’x5’x1’ marble statue that weighs around 100 lbs. would have
a base EV of 5 (five feet tall), +2 EV (five feet wide), +5 EV due to its weight,
and x2 EV for being so bulky. Therefore the statue has a total EV of 24, which
is quite impressive. Finally, a fine silk tablecloth would have a total EV of 3: Its
base of 6 (it’s about six feet long), +2 for being about 4 feet wide, –2 EV for
being very light, and –1 EV for being formless. This gives a total EV of 5, which
is then multiplied by 1⁄2 due to it being narrow, giving it a final EV of 3.
WORN AND CAPACITY OBJECTS
The EV for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object. Some objects
are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes, armor, etc.). As such, a
character that wears any of these objects would have the EV of the item reduced
by 1. Thus, a character that is wearing a suit of padded armor (EV 2 base) would
instead count it as an EV of 1 so long as they were wearing the armor. Wearable
items are marked with a “W” by their encumbrance value.
Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry. They are also
designed to disperse the encumbrance over a larger area, thus reducing the
bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks, sacks, chests, etc.)
reduce the total EV of the items inside by –2. Therefore, a character who has
a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and
50 feet of silk rope (EV 2) would have a total EV for the items of 8 (which is
the most that the backpack can carry with a capacity of 8), but this would be
reduced to EV 5 due to them being in the backpack. Thus, the backpack and
its items would only add 6 to the character’s EV (5 for the items carried and 1
for the backpack since it is being worn).

EFFECTS OF ENCUMBRANCE
The effects of carrying too much equipment are potentially hazardous to
characters. Much care needs to be given to how much is being hauled around.
The penalties to movement and attribute checks are listed below.
ENCUMBRANCE
CATEGORY EFFECT
None No Effect
Light
Move reduced by 1⁄4, +1 Challenge Level to all
dexterity based checks
Moderate
Move reduced by 1⁄2, +2 Challenge Level to all
dexterity based checks
Heavy
Move reduced by 3⁄4, +4 to Challenge Level to all
dexterity based checks, lose dexterity bonus* to AC
Overburdened
Move reduced to 1 foot per round, automatically fail all
dexterity based checks, lose dexterity bonus* to AC
* = Note that losing one’s dexterity bonus only applies if the character’s
dexterity modifier is positive, if the character has a dexterity modifier that is
negative, the negative penalty still applies.
Going back to Memnon from earlier, we see that he is lightly encumbered.
As such, his move is reduced by 2 and any dexterity attribute checks or saves
suffer a +1 challenge level penalty. While crossing a narrow footbridge,
Memnon slips on the wet stones. The Castle Keeper asks for a dexterity check
to keep his footing. Memnon notes that his CL for this check would be at +1
due to his encumbrance. Later on, Memnon finds a very nice statue that he
wants to take with him in the catacombs. The Castle Keeper tells him that
the EV of the item is 24, which combined with his other equipment, gives
Memnon an EV total of 41. This puts him in the heavily encumbered range.
He now has his move reduced by are and gains a +4 challenge level penalty to
all dexterity checks. Moreover, he loses his dexterity bonus to his AC.


I think that's everything except for the first section that gives common sense advice on how to eyeball it. I may have to go to bed in a bit, so I'll let others compare the 3rd print to whatever's in the 4th. If it matches up...let the discussion begin.

[tylermo]

Way to go, Kreider. I remember that discussion awhile back. I just glanced at it, but that might help clarify things at least.

[Arduin]

This is from third printing, so I hope it's the same as fourth.

Same as my 4th PDF.

DETERMINING ENCUMBRANCE
Each character has an Encumbrance Rating (ER). The encumbrance rating
for a character has a base of 10. The base is then modified by the character’s
strength modifier, if any, to determine the character’s final ER. Characters with
strength or constitution as a prime attribute may also add +2 to their ER.
These bonuses for prime attributes stack, so a character with both strength
and constitution as prime would gain a +4 to their ER. The Encumbrance
Value (EV) of many items is located on the equipment list. When determining
the encumbrance of a character, add up the EVs of all the items carried and
compare this to the character’s ER.

There are five categories of encumbrance: none, light, moderate, heavy
and overburdened. The amount of equipment that can be carried and the
category into which the character’s encumbrance total falls is affected by the
character’s ER, determined above. The following chart indicates the amount
that can be carried and into which category the character’s total encumbrance
falls. No character can carry more than five times their ER.


ENCUMBRANCE CATEGORY Weight

None: 0 to 1x ER
Light: 1x ER to 2x ER
Moderate: 2x ER to 3x ER
Heavy: 3x ER to 4x ER
Overburdened: 4x ER to 5x ER

For example, the ancient and wizened priest of Thoth, Memnon, has
strength of 7 and a -1 strength modifier. He also has constitution as one
of his three primes. As such, his ER is 11, due to the 10 base, modified
by -1 for his strength modifier and +2 for his constitution prime. On a
trip to an ancient burial ground to lay a soul properly to rest, Memnon
expects trouble so he is carrying a lot of material with him. His equipment’s
encumbrance values add up to 17. Memnon’s categories for encumbrance
are: none: 0 to 11, light: 12 to 22, moderate: 23 to 33, heavy: 34 to 44,
and overburdened: 45 to 55. With an EV total of 17, Memnon is lightly
encumbered and suffers the penalties for that category.


AD HOC ENCUMBRANCE

Encumbrance is a function of the size, weight and bulk of an object.
Encumbrance values for some common items are provided in the following
equipment list. But, it might come up during a game session that the Castle
Keeper must quickly determine the EV of an object that isn’t listed on the
equipment list. Due to that, rules of ad hoc EV determination are provided.
To ad hoc the EV for an item, a relatively quick system has been developed.
First, get a general idea of the dimensions of the object in feet and use the
largest of the dimensions as the starting EV. So a statue that was 5’x2’x1’ would
have an EV base of 5. After determining the EV base, add a +2 to that number
for every dimension that is greater than 1’. So, the 5’x2’x1’ statue would add
a +2 for the 2 feet dimension, giving it a final EV base of 7. If the item has
all of its dimensions as less than a foot, use a base EV of 1. Finally, the weight,
balance and materials the items are made up of should be factored in.

WEIGHT Modifier Weight Note (example)

Very Light: -2 EV Under 1 lbs. total (feathers)
Light: -1 EV Under 6 lbs. (cloth)
Heavy: +3 EV Under 24 lbs. (steel)
Very Heavy: +5 EV 25 lbs. and up (marble)

BULK Modifier Example

Balanced: -1 EV Most Weapons
Bulky: x2 EV Barrel, objects more than half-man sized
Formless: -1 EV Cloth, objects with mutable forms
Narrow: x1⁄2 EV Less than 2 inches in width

For example, a dagger would have a base EV of 2 (most daggers are about one
or two feet long and a few inches wide and deep), –1 EV due for their weight
(they usually don’t weigh more than a couple of pounds) giving them an EV of
1. Meanwhile, a 5’x5’x1’ marble statue that weighs around 100 lbs. would have
a base EV of 5 (five feet tall), +2 EV (five feet wide), +5 EV due to its weight,
and x2 EV for being so bulky. Therefore the statue has a total EV of 24, which
is quite impressive. Finally, a fine silk tablecloth would have a total EV of 3: Its
base of 6 (it’s about six feet long), +2 for being about 4 feet wide, –2 EV for
being very light, and –1 EV for being formless. This gives a total EV of 5, which
is then multiplied by 1⁄2 due to it being narrow, giving it a final EV of 3.

WORN AND CAPACITY OBJECTS

The EV for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object. Some objects
are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes, armor, etc.). As such, a
character that wears any of these objects would have the EV of the item reduced
by 1. Thus, a character that is wearing a suit of padded armor (EV 2 base) would
instead count it as an EV of 1 so long as they were wearing the armor. Wearable
items are marked with a “W” by their encumbrance value.

Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry. They are also
designed to disperse the encumbrance over a larger area, thus reducing the
bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks, sacks, chests, etc.)
reduce the total EV of the items inside by –2. Therefore, a character who has
a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and
50 feet of silk rope (EV 2) would have a total EV for the items of 8 (which is
the most that the backpack can carry with a capacity of 8), but this would be
reduced to EV 5 due to them being in the backpack. Thus, the backpack and
its items would only add 6 to the character’s EV (5 for the items carried and 1
for the backpack since it is being worn).

EFFECTS OF ENCUMBRANCE

The effects of carrying too much equipment are potentially hazardous to
characters. Much care needs to be given to how much is being hauled around.
The penalties to movement and attribute checks are listed below.

ENCUMBRANCE CATEGORY EFFECT

None: No Effect

Light: Move reduced by 1⁄4, +1 Challenge Level to all dexterity based checks

Moderate: Move reduced by 1⁄2, +2 Challenge Level to all dexterity based checks

Heavy: Move reduced by 3⁄4, +4 to Challenge Level to all dexterity based checks, lose dexterity bonus* to AC

Overburdened: Move reduced to 1 foot per round, automatically fail all dexterity based checks, lose dexterity bonus* to AC

* = Note that losing one’s dexterity bonus only applies if the character’s
dexterity modifier is positive, if the character has a dexterity modifier that is
negative, the negative penalty still applies.

Going back to Memnon from earlier, we see that he is lightly encumbered.
As such, his move is reduced by 2 and any dexterity attribute checks or saves
suffer a +1 challenge level penalty. While crossing a narrow footbridge,
Memnon slips on the wet stones. The Castle Keeper asks for a dexterity check
to keep his footing. Memnon notes that his CL for this check would be at +1
due to his encumbrance. Later on, Memnon finds a very nice statue that he
wants to take with him in the catacombs. The Castle Keeper tells him that
the EV of the item is 24, which combined with his other equipment, gives
Memnon an EV total of 41. This puts him in the heavily encumbered range.
He now has his move reduced by are and gains a +4 challenge level penalty to
all dexterity checks. Moreover, he loses his dexterity bonus to his AC.


I think that's everything except for the first section that gives common sense advice on how to eyeball it. I may have to go to bed in a bit, so I'll let others compare the 3rd print to whatever's in the 4th. If it matches up...let the discussion begin.[/quote]

[Newenglandjeff]

WORN AND CAPACITY OBJECTS

The EV for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object. Some objects
are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes, armor, etc.). As such, a
character that wears any of these objects would have the EV of the item reduced
by 1. Thus, a character that is wearing a suit of padded armor (EV 2 base) would
instead count it as an EV of 1 so long as they were wearing the armor. Wearable
items are marked with a “W” by their encumbrance value.

Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry. They are also
designed to disperse the encumbrance over a larger area, thus reducing the
bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks, sacks, chests, etc.)
reduce the total EV of the items inside by –2. Therefore, a character who has
a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and
50 feet of silk rope (EV 2) would have a total EV for the items of 8 (which is
the most that the backpack can carry with a capacity of 8), but this would be
reduced to EV 5 due to them being in the backpack. Thus, the backpack and
its items would only add 6 to the character’s EV (5 for the items carried and 1
for the backpack since it is being worn).

Thats the part I was refering to.

[tylermo]

Same here, NEJeff. We were making that Dwarven barbarian just the other night, and those were the same passages. If Stephen hasn't seen this, I'll alert him to this thread, and Josh Chewning's correction from sometime back.

[tylermo]

Just messaged and linked ol' Troll to page 2 of this discussion. Also sent him the link to Chewning's 4th print EV errata. Hopefully, he'll be able to pop in and check it out. At a skimming glance(and I'm no C&C guru), it seems like making changes to the aforementioned paragraphs on pg. 48?, and implementing Chewning's EV errata would be a good start for the 5th printing phb. Simplifying the current system, or a complete overhaul might still be up for discussion, as well. Any other ideas?

[Newenglandjeff]

-Delete that second paragraph on page 48 (PHB 4th printing). The first paragraph says all that needs to be said.

-Make it more evident that items with a (w) listed after its encumbrance value is halved when worn. Any table that contains items with a (w) should have a footnote describing this.

-Create a separate table for load bearing equipement. (backpacks, belts, pouches, scabbards etc..)

-Add a paragraph explaining how the pouch and belt system works. As it is, this concept appears as footnote 2 on page 46. I think such a gameplay mechanic should be more prominent. Personally, I just call it a "Load bearing harness". The individual player can view that as a tactical vest, drop holster, or simply a belt with pouches.

-Create a separate table for 2-handed weapons

-Consider moving all the equipment tables after the "Encumbrance" section.

-Add Encumbrance data for spellbooks

These are my suggestions.

[koralas]

-Delete that second paragraph on page 48 (PHB 4th printing). The first paragraph says all that needs to be said.

That paragraph is exceptionally important when you think of it... It explains how containers make it easier to carry your equipment. The backpack for example, I don't have my book with me, but I am guessing it has an EV of 2 normally. It can be worn, so the EV of a backpack when worn is only a 1. Then after you fill the backpack with your equipment, you subtract 2 from the total EV of the equipment placed within it to show the benefit of using a backpack to haul your gear. The backpack disperses the load across a larger area of your body, or provides convenient handles if carrying it, thus making it easier to haul. If you put gear that adds up to 8 EV into the backpack, it counts as only 6 EV plus the 2 EV of the backpack itself, so when carrying it it results in a total of 8 EV; however, if you instead sling the back and wear it, it only counts as 7 EV since you subtract 1 for wearing the pack. If you remove this paragraph, carrying the pack full of equipment would result in 10EV, 9EV if worn.

(Note the paragraph has an error in it, 8-2=6 not 5, so the EV would 7 carried, 6 worn not 6/5 as shown, unless of course the backpack is supposed to reduce EV by -3, which would make more sense to me.)

Now I would like to see a separate chart with different container types listing their capacities and EV reduction, though I think I could ad-hoc that pretty easily as well. I would think a Sack would not reduce EV as much as a backpack, and a small chest may reduce that EV by the same (at a cost of the extra EV of the chest itself, basically offsetting the EV adjustment), but a large chest, which would generally require two people to carry, should have an even greater EV reduction. Also, smart players will find ways to reduce the EV, especially of the larger items, such as making a sling to carry it, a stretcher to carry or drag it, or using ropes or poles to allow multiple people split the load, etc.

[tylermo]

Passed along your last suggestions, as well. Would be interesting to hear from Mr. Chewning. Kind of curious to see what he thinks. Then again, his old errat post may be all we need to know.

[Newenglandjeff]

Koralas,
I see what you are saying. It seems intention of that paragraph is to give rules on capacities and effects of barrels, sacks, chests, or even a carried backpack (not worn). The example they give is just horrendous. In the first paragraph, they establish that anything placed in a backpack or pouch has it's encumberance halved and rounded down. The second paragraph then goes on to contravene those rules by saying that you take the total EV and subtract 2. Maybe if they rework the second paragraph and use an example that does not include a backpack.



EDIT:
Arduin, it seems I have a different version of page 48. Mine reads as follows:

WORN AND CAPACITY OBJECTS

The EV for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object.
Some objects are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes,
armor, etc.). As such, load–bearing items (such as backpacks, sack, chests,
etc.) reduce the total EV of the items inside by 1 for every 2 points (i.e.
divide total EV by two, rounding down) of EV contained within. Thus, a
character that has a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2),
50 nails (EV 1), and one torch (EV 1) would have a total EV for the items
of 7. This would be reduced to 3 (7/2 = 3.5, rounded down to 3) and
thus make the backpack’s total EV 4(w) (EV of 1(w) for the backpack
plus the modified EV 3 for the items contained within). Also note that
load–bearing items and worn items can reduce the EV of the items to
0, as would be the case of a Small Pouch carrying 1 EV of equipment.
One–half of 1 EV, rounding down would be 0 EV, so the EV of the Small
Pouch and the item contained within would be 0 EV.


Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry. They
are also designed to disperse the encumbrance over a larger area, thus
reducing the bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks,
sacks, chests, etc.) reduce the total EV of the items inside by –2.
Therefore, a character who has a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3),
hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and 50 feet of silk rope (EV 2) would
have a total EV for the items of 8 (which is the most that the backpack
can carry with a capacity of 8), but this would be reduced to EV 5 due
to them being in the backpack. Thus, the backpack and its items would
only add 6 to the character’s EV (5 for the items carried and 1 for the
backpack since it is being worn).

I think I have the 4th print. I purchased the book just this past December, and the PDF this past February.

[Sir Ironside]

WORN AND CAPACITY OBJECTS
Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry. They
are also designed to disperse the encumbrance over a larger area, thus
reducing the bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks,
sacks, chests, etc.) reduce the total EV of the items inside by –2.
Therefore, a character who has a backpack carrying a bedroll (EV 3),
hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and 50 feet of silk rope (EV 2) would
have a total EV for the items of 8 (which is the most that the backpack
can carry with a capacity of 8), but this would be reduced to EV 5 due
to them being in the backpack. Thus, the backpack and its items would
only add 6 to the character’s EV (5 for the items carried and 1 for the
backpack since it is being worn).

Maybe I'm just not getting this paragraph. It says subtract two for all the items in the backpack. But the example shows that 3 has been taken off the EV. Going by this rule shouldn't the total EV for carrying these items in the backpack is EV 6? Then add the one for the backpack gives a total of EV 7.

What am I missing? Where does the extra -1 come from?

[tylermo]

Stephen? Oh, Stephen? Care to weigh in?

[Ieuane]

Not to distract from efforts to clarify specifics of the current rules, but here's my take.

The only reason I see to use an encumbrance system is to stop characters from carrying around an insanely implausible amount of stuff, especially when fighting. A system that uses AC and Hit Points shouldn't overburden (pun intended) the game trying to be uber-realistic with the physics of equipment loads.

Few ideas -
1. No ER, no penalties. No various load categories. A character may carry 10 plus his Strength modifier in EV.
2. Each item/weapon has an EV of 1 or a ratio, such as darts (3=1), coins (50=1), rations (3=1).
3. Give containers a storage value, such as Pouch (3), Backpack (8).
4. Any container has an EV of 1
5. Clothes and jewelry (belt, hat, gloves, ring, necklace) have no EV.
6. (Optional) Armor does not use EV, but has Move penalties. Medium -5 feet, Heavy -10 feet. I would rather give non-leather armor minimum Strength requirements, and toss any penalties. Having a proficiency in a type of armor should cover the ability to move in it.

Example,

Character with a Strength of 12

Equipment
1. Longsword
2. Dagger
3. Short Bow
4. Quiver/Arrows
5. Pouch #1
6. Flint & Steel
7. CLW potion
8. CSW potion
9.
10.Backpack

Backpack
1. Bedrool
2. Torch
3. Torch
4. 50' Rope
5. Scroll
6. Iron spike
7. Hammer
8. Rations (3)

Pouch #1
1. 50 gold
2. 28 gold
3.

No-EV
1. +1 Ring of Protection
2. Cloak of Elvenkind
3. Leather gloves

Want to carry more? Buy a pony, hire a strong back, place a classified ad in the Ludensheim Times for a Bag of Holding.

[cheeplives]

Personally, I'd just like to see the Encumbrance System included with all of the Errata that's existed since like the 2nd printing, but always seems to get left out. That's just me, though.

Here is the full text I have written for the way Encumbrance is supposed to work in C&C:

Code: Select all

Determining Encumbrance
Each character has an Encumbrance Rating (ER). The Encumbrance Rating for a character has a base of 10. The base is then modified by the character’s Strength modifier, if any, to determine the character’s final ER. Characters with Strength or Constitution as a Prime Attribute may also add +2 to their ER. These bonuses for Prime attributes stack, so a character with both Strength and Constitution as Prime would gain a +4 to their Encumbrance Rating. The Encumbrance Value (EV) of many items is located on the equipment list. When determine the encumbrance of a character, add up the EVs of all the items carried and compare this to the character’s Encumbrance Rating.
There are five categories of encumbrance: none, light, moderate, heavy, and overburdened. The amount of equipment that can be carried and the category into which the character’s encumbrance total falls is affect by the character’s Encumbrance Rating, determined above. The following chart indicates the amount that can be carried and into which category the character’s total encumbrance falls. No character can carry more than five times their ER.

Encumbrance Category		Weight
None	0 to 1x ER
Light	1x ER to 2x ER
Moderate	2x ER to 3x ER
Heavy	3x ER to 4x ER
Overburdened	4x ER to 5x ER

For example, the ancient and wizened priest of Thoth, Memnon, has Strength of 7 and a -1 Strength modifier. He also has Constitution as one of his three Primes. As such, his Encumbrance Rating is 11, due to the 10 base, modified by -1 for his Strength modifier and +2 for his Constitution Prime. On a trip to an ancient burial ground to lay a soul properly to rest, Memnon expects trouble so he is carrying a lot of material with him. His equipment’s Encumbrance Values add up to 17. Memnon’s categories for Encumbrance are: None: 0 to 11, Light:  12 to 22, Moderate: 23 to 33, Heavy: 34 to 44, and Overburdened: 45 to 55. With an EV total of 17, Memnon is Lightly Encumbered and suffers the penalties for that category.

Ad Hoc Encumbrance
Encumbrance is a function of the size, weight, and bulk of an object. Encumbrance Values for some common items are provided in the following Equipment List. But, it might come up during a game session that the CK must quickly determine the EV of an object that isn’t listed on the equipment list. Due to that, rules of ad hoc EV determination are provided as well.
To ad hoc the EV for an item a relatively quick system has been developed. First get a general idea of the dimensions of the object in feet and use the largest of the dimensions as the starting EV. So a statue that was 5’x2’x1’ would have an EV base of 5. After determining the EV base, add a +2 to that number for every dimension that is greater than 1’. So, the 5’x2’x1’ statue would add a +2 for the 2’ dimension, giving it a final EV base of 7. If the item has all of its dimensions as less than a foot use a base EV or 1. Finally, the weight, balance, and materials the items are made up of should be factored in. 

Weight	Modifier	Weight Note (example)
Very Light	-2 EV	Under 1 lbs. total (feathers)
Light	-1 EV	Under 6 lbs. (cloth)
Heavy	+3 EV	Under 24 lbs. (steel)
Very Heavy	+5 EV	25 lbs. and up (marble)

Bulk	Modifier	Example
Balanced	-1 EV	Most Weapons
Bulky	x2 EV	Barrel, objects more than half-man sized
Formless	-1 EV	Cloth, objects with mutable forms
Narrow	-2 EV	Less than 2 inches in width

For example, a dagger would have a base EV of 2 (most daggers are about one or two feet long and a few inches wide and deep), -1 EV due for their weight (they usually don’t weigh more than a couple of pounds) giving them an EV of 1. Meanwhile, a 5’x5’x1’ marble statue that weighs around 100 lbs. would have a base EV of 5 (five feet tall), +2 EV (five feet wide), +5 EV due to its weight, and x2 EV for being so bulky. Therefore the statue has a total EV of 24, which is quite impressive. Finally, a fine silk tablecloth would have a total EV of 1. Its base of 6 (it’s about six feet long), -2 EV for being very light, -1 EV for being formless, and -2 EV for being narrow.

Worn and Capacity Objects
The Encumbrance Value for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object. Some objects are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes, armor, etc.). As such, a character that wears any of these objects would have the EV of the item reduced by 1. Thus, a character that is wearing a suit of Padded Armor (EV 2 base) would instead count it as an EV of 1 so long as they were wearing the armor. Wearable items are marked with a “W” by their Encumbrance Value.
Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry (listed as their Capacity). They are also designed to disperse the Encumbrance over a larger area, reducing the bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks, sack, chests, etc.) reduce the total EV of the items inside by 1 for every 2 points (i.e. divide total EV by two, rounding down) of EV contained within. Thus, a character who has a backpack (EV of 2w) carrying a Bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and one torch (EV 1) would have a total EV for the items of 7. This would be reduced to 3 (7/2 = 3.5, rounded down to 3) and thus make the backpack's total EV 5 (w) (EV of 2 (w) for the backpack plus the modified EV 3 for the items contained within) if carried in the hands. This also means that when a character puts on the Backpack, they will have a total EV from it of 4 (since the 5 (w) is reduced by 1 when it's worn).
Also note that load-bearing items and worn items can reduce the EV of the items to 0, as would be the case of a Small Pouch carrying 1 EV of equipment. One-half of 1 EV, rounding down would be 0 EV, so the EV of the Small Pouch and the item contained within would be 0 EV.
Effects of Encumbrance
The effects of carrying too much equipment are potentially hazardous to characters. Much care needs to be given to how much is being hauled around. The penalties to movement and attribute checks are listed below.

Encumbrance Category	Effect
None	No Effect
Light	Move reduced by ¼, +1 Challenge Level to all Dexterity based checks
Moderate	Move reduced by ½, +2 Challenge Level to all Dexterity based checks
Heavy	Move reduced by ¾, +4 to Challenge Level to all Dexterity based checks, Lose Dexterity bonus* to AC.
Overburdened	Move reduced to 1 foot per round, Automatically fail all Dexterity based checks, lose Dexterity bonus* to AC.

* = Note that losing one’s Dexterity bonus only applies if the character’s Dexterity modifier is positive, if the character has a Dexterity modifier that is negative, the negative penalty still applies.

Going back to Memnon from earlier, we see that he is lightly encumbered. As such, his move is reduced by ¼ and any Dexterity attribute checks or saves suffer a +1 Challenge Level penalty. While crossing a narrow footbridge, Memnon slips on the wet stones. The CK asks for a Dexterity check to keep is footing. Memnon notes that his Challenge Level for this check would be at +1 due to his encumbrance. Later on, Memnon finds a very nice statue that he wants to take with him in the catacombs. The CK tells him that the EV of the item is 24, which combined with his other equipment, gives Memnon an EV total of 41. This puts him in the Heavily Encumbered range. He now has his move reduced by ¾ and gains a +4 Challenge Level penalty to all Dexterity checks. Moreover, he loses his Dexterity bonus to his AC.

[koralas]

Koralas,
I see what you are saying. It seems intention of that paragraph is to give rules on capacities and effects of barrels, sacks, chests, or even a carried backpack (not worn). The example they give is just horrendous. In the first paragraph, they establish that anything placed in a backpack or pouch has it's encumberance halved and rounded down. The second paragraph then goes on to contravene those rules by saying that you take the total EV and subtract 2. Maybe if they rework the second paragraph and use an example that does not include a backpack.

Gotcha, which printing of the rules is the book that you have? (what does the cover on the book look like?)

[Newenglandjeff]

Worn and Capacity Objects
The Encumbrance Value for objects assumes that the character is carrying the object. Some objects are instead designed to be worn by the character (clothes, armor, etc.). As such, a character that wears any of these objects would have the EV of the item reduced by 1. Thus, a character that is wearing a suit of Padded Armor (EV 2 base) would instead count it as an EV of 1 so long as they were wearing the armor. Wearable items are marked with a “W” by their Encumbrance Value.
Load bearing items have a maximum EV that they can carry (listed as their Capacity). They are also designed to disperse the Encumbrance over a larger area, reducing the bulk. As such, load-bearing items (such as backpacks, sack, chests, etc.) reduce the total EV of the items inside by 1 for every 2 points (i.e. divide total EV by two, rounding down) of EV contained within. Thus, a character who has a backpack carrying a Bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and one torch (EV 1) would have a total EV for the items of 7. This would be reduced to 3 (7/2 = 3.5, rounded down to 3) and thus make the backpack's total EV 4 (w) (EV of 1 (w) for the backpack plus the modified EV 3 for the items contained within). This also means that when a character puts on the Backpack, they will have a total EV from it of 4 (since the 2 (w) is reduced by 1 when it's worn). Also note that load-bearing items and worn items can reduce the EV of the items to 0, as would be the case of a Small Pouch carrying 1 EV of equipment. One-half of 1 EV, rounding down would be 0 EV, so the EV of the Small Pouch and the item contained within would be 0 EV.
Effects of Encumbrance
The effects of carrying too much equipment are potentially hazardous to characters. Much care needs to be given to how much is being hauled around. The penalties to movement and attribute checks are listed below.

That looks pretty good. I highlighted in red what I believe is a correction in the math. My book shows a Backpack's EV of 2(w). The total value of the contents of the pack is 7. Divide 7 by 2, because it is stuffed into a load bearing item, and you get 3.5. We don't like fractions so we call it 3. The EV of the pack with contents is now 5 (3 for the items, 2 for the pack) if carried overhead, or 4 if worn.

Gotcha, which printing of the rules is the book that you have? (what does the cover on the book look like?)

I was hoping somebody would ask me that. The cover shows a big cat of some type jumping out of a tree, presumably to pounce on the fellow with the bad hair cut. As this is happening, a woman is shooting at a snake with a bow, while another fellow is throwing a hammer at the cat.

[Sir Ironside]

I was hoping somebody would ask me that. The cover shows a big cat of some type jumping out of a tree, presumably to pounce on the fellow with the bad hair cut. As this is happening, a woman is shooting at a snake with a bow, while another fellow is throwing a hammer at the cat.

I actually sent nude pictures of myself to Mr. Bradley. To my surprise he used one of them for the woman pose! (I'm guessing me humping the bed didn't make the cut.)

[cheeplives]

That looks pretty good. I highlighted in red what I believe is a correction in the math. My book shows a Backpack's EV of 2(w). The total value of the contents of the pack is 7. Divide 7 by 2, because it is stuffed into a load bearing item, and you get 3.5. We don't like fractions so we call it 3. The EV of the pack with contents is now 5 (3 for the items, 2 for the pack) if carried overhead, or 4 if worn.

You're right... updated. I think my list originally had 1(w) for a Backpack but it got changed (as many of my EVs seemed to) in publication.

My primary vote would still be using a Encumbrance system inspired by The Riddle of Steel... I only wrote the one that was included as no one liked my first suggestion and the original playtest encumbrance rules (based off of weight) allowed characters to carry a couple dozen suits of full plate and be "unencumbered"... not to mention the fact that a STR 10 character could carry around two smith anvils and be just fine.

[Skywalker]

Here is the encumbrance rules for the new DCC RPG:

"A character who carries too much weight is slowed down. Use common sense. Players must explain how they are carrying their equipment: which hand holds which weapon, which sack or backpack contains which objects, and so on. A character carrying a substantial ratio of his body weight is slowed to half speed. A character cannot carry more equipment than half his body weight."

Simple and intuitive. (No weights are listed for any equipment, though.)

I vote for scrapping EV altogether. If we need something in place, this would be great.

[Skywalker]

Encumbrance as presented in the book is perceived as being confusing. Whether that is true or not is subject to interpretation, but the perception is the reality here. Encumbrance is probably the one section of the rules that gets the most questions.

After 35+ years of gaming I'm pretty good at rule comprehension but, I had to reread this section several times and make examples in my head to "get it". Not sure if it is the rules or, the presentation that gives me a problem...

That is my experience too. I also know of several players turned off C&C by the encumbrance rules alone (extreme? yes, but still a factor).

My main issue with EV is that, as written, it doesn't match the approach of the rest of the rules. Something consistent with the overall needs to replace it or it should go.

[cheeplives]

Another option would be to use the EVs as listed but change the Total Encumbrance Rating and how Capacity Items work.

Do it as such:

Worn Items
Remove the Worn distinction... just remove the (W)... leave the EVs untouched.

Capacity Items
Items that are designed to carry and redistribute the weight and bulk of other items are called Capacity Items. Capacity Items can carry a number of items equal to their Capacity. Furthermore, a Capacity Item cannot carry any item whose EV is equal to or greater than it's Capacity rating. So a Backpack, with a Capacity of 8, can carry up to 8 items whose EVs are 7 or less.
Items that are carried in a Capacity item do not have their EV included in the character's Encumbrance Total. Instead, the character only notes the EV of the Capacity item. So the character wearing an EV 2 Backpack that has a Bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and one torch (EV 1) has five items in the Backpack (and thus has space for three more items). The character's Encumbrance Rating is only increased by 2 when they carry the Backpack, ignoring the EVs of the items inside of it.

Encumbrance Ratings
A character has an Encumbrance Score equal to their Strength Score. This is then modified by the character's Prime Attributes. If the character has either the Strength or Constitution Attributes as Prime, they may add 3 to their Strength Score to determine their Encumbrance Score. If the character has both Strength and Constitution as Prime, then they may add 6. This Encumbrance Score is the total amount of Encumbrance Values the character can carry before being Burdened.
A character is considered Unburdened, Burdened, or Overloaded according to the amount of EV they are carrying. If the character is carrying less than their Encumbrance Rating in EV, then they are Unburdened. If they are carrying more than their Encumbrance Rating, but less than triple their ER then they are Burdened. A character that is carrying more than three times their Encumbrance Rating is considered Overburdened.

Unburdened: No Effect
Burdened: -10 ft to character's Move Score (minimum of 5 ft), +2 to Challenge Level of all Dexterity Based Checks
Overburdened: Move reduced to 5 feet per round, Automatically fail all Dexterity Based Checks, Lose Dexterity bonus to AC

For example, the ancient and wizened priest of Thoth, Memnon, has Strength of 7 and a -1 Strength modifier. He also has Constitution as one of his three Primes. As such, his Encumbrance Rating is 10, (Base of his Strength = 7, plus 3 for his Constitution Prime). On a trip to an ancient burial ground to lay a soul properly to rest, Memnon expects trouble so he is carrying a lot of material with him. His equipment’s Encumbrance Values add up to 17. Since 17 is greater than his Encumbrance Rating but less than three times his ER, he is Burdened. If he later picked up a Statue with an EV of 20, his Encumbrance would then be 37 and Memnon would be Overburdened.
Meanwhile, his brawny companion Suryc has a Strength of 16 and both Strength and Constitution as Primes. Suryc has an Encumbrance Rating of 22. If Suryc carried with him the same equipment as Memnon, he would be Unburdened (since EV 17 is less than his ER of 22). Furthermore, if Suryc then picked up the EV 24 statue, he would only just be Burdened, since 39 is less than thrice his ER (66).

----

This 1) removes the need to get rid of EVs entirely, 2) speeds up Capacity items, 3) removes confusion about Worn items, and 4) reduces the amount of Encumbrance Maths... you are either fine, burdened, or overburdened... no need for five different categories.

[Newenglandjeff]

I'm in favor of having an encumberance system. The C&C system is adequate. GM's are free to use or not. I just think more people would be willing to use if it were presented coherently.

[Arduin]

I just think more people would be willing to use if it were presented coherently.

I agree. The way it is written is off-putting. The system itself is fine. IMO.

[Traveller]

Despite my obvious dislike of the system if the Trolls decide that the encumbrance system is to remain in the game, then cheep's current revision of it addresses some significant problems, especially the confusing cases and mathematics issues. I believe the ad hoc encumbrance rules could stand for some clarification as well, as they too are somewhat confusingly written.

Since I believe the rules need to be consistently applied across the PHB and M&T, any creature that carries things as well as all the magic items in the next printing of Monsters & Treasure will need to have EV values applied to them. I understand the idea behind NOT putting EV values on magic items, since people treat magic items differently. Is a magic item light as a feather or as heavy as a normal item? Volume of many magic items, regardless of its weight does not change simply because it is a magic item (Rod of Lordly Might being a notable exception). The Trolls should specify their baseline assumption in the book and EV for magic items should be generated based on that assumption.

There is one last thing: what IS 1EV? Well, based on the RAW, it's the weight of 50 coins (3 lbs., 2 oz.). It's not a difficult stretch to expand the RAW a bit and say that 1EV is equivalent to the weight and volume of 50 coins. Weight is easy, but what about the volume? Well, according to the d20 System, a coin is roughly the size of the US Half Dollar. 50 of them stacked is 30.61 mm x 107.5 mm (1.2 in x 4.2 in). So the volume of 50 coins, tightly stacked and rolled would be 1.2 in x 1.2 in 2 4.2 in, or 6.04 cubic inches). For simplicity's sake then, 1 EV is (rounded) 3 lbs and 6 cubic inches. I understand that cheep doesn't wish to put hard numbers in his system like this but I believe it to be necessary as an aid to determining ad hoc encumbrance since this is the standard candle. From this baseline modifiers can be applied to change the number. Since ad hoc encumbrance is intended for items not covered in the rules (e.g. a throne) the math is unfortunately a necessary evil. It also helps in determining how many coins fit in a chest.