If a Wizard loses his spellbook...

[treant_on_fire]

...and he doesn't have 'Read Magic' prepared. How does he learn spells once more?

Sorry, I'm from 3.5 and we had the Spellcraft skill in case such things happened. I'm sure previous D&D books covered that and it meant most C&C players did not notice but this lack of information is a bit confusing for me. o.O

[Go0gleplex]

Find a "friendly" wizard for hire and have them learn the spell from them (tutoring can be expensive) then allow them to re-build their book from there via various (again expensive) sources.

[alcyone]

Or do like 3.5: you don't need a spellbook to prepare Read Magic.

[redwullf]

Or do like 3.5: you don't need a spellbook to prepare Read Magic.

+1

Spellbooks: A wizard must study her spell book each day to prepare her spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177). She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

[treant_on_fire]

Or do like 3.5: you don't need a spellbook to prepare Read Magic.

+1

Spellbooks: A wizard must study her spell book each day to prepare her spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177). She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

Sold! :p

Thanks for the tip, I actually didn't even know that rule for 3.5! (I always used Spellcraft for such things!)

[mbeacom]

It's funny you mention the auto-read-magic of 3.5. I had kind of forgotten since I don't play casters a ton but I was just boning up on the Inquisitor for a pathfinder group I'm about to join and happened to read that, literally just last night.

BTW, the PFRPG advanced player guide is pretty nice.

[treant_on_fire]

It's funny you mention the auto-read-magic of 3.5. I had kind of forgotten since I don't play casters a ton but I was just boning up on the Inquisitor for a pathfinder group I'm about to join and happened to read that, literally just last night.

BTW, the PFRPG advanced player guide is pretty nice.

Yeah, I think the time has come for me to upgrade my 3.5 to Pathfinder. I'm not crazy about all of the changes but overall I think it looks like a more solid game.

Going a bit off-topic here but here's how I see it:

3.5/Pathfinder for when I want a lot of character customization and want to use a lot of minis and whatnot.
Castles & Crusades for when I want things rules-light and fast-paced.

And then my two upcoming flavors:

Crypts & Things for when I want that 'pulp' feel of gritty (but still heroic) Fantasy.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess for when I want horrifying and deadly campaigns in the vein of the Cthulhu mythos or Ravenloft. (Or just deadlier in general, like in Game of Thrones)

[mbeacom]

It's funny you mention the auto-read-magic of 3.5. I had kind of forgotten since I don't play casters a ton but I was just boning up on the Inquisitor for a pathfinder group I'm about to join and happened to read that, literally just last night.

BTW, the PFRPG advanced player guide is pretty nice.

Yeah, I think the time has come for me to upgrade my 3.5 to Pathfinder. I'm not crazy about all of the changes but overall I think it looks like a more solid game.

Going a bit off-topic here but here's how I see it:

3.5/Pathfinder for when I want a lot of character customization and want to use a lot of minis and whatnot.
Castles & Crusades for when I want things rules-light and fast-paced.

And then my two upcoming flavors:

Crypts & Things for when I want that 'pulp' feel of gritty (but still heroic) Fantasy.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess for when I want horrifying and deadly campaigns in the vein of the Cthulhu mythos or Ravenloft. (Or just deadlier in general, like in Game of Thrones)

Sounds like a pretty nice lineup, covering lots of bases.

My go-to games are:
1. C&C for when I want to just play D&D but without all the fiddly bits (also really like LL for this).
2. ACKS for when I want to really go old school yet with a unique flavor all its own (still trying to get a long term campaign going in this ruleset)
3. 4E when I want to play a deep tactical miniatures skirmish with some RP flavor thrown in.
4. PFRPG for when I want to read about rules for about 6 hours before I make a character (and yes, sometimes I want to do this)

[treant_on_fire]

It's funny you mention the auto-read-magic of 3.5. I had kind of forgotten since I don't play casters a ton but I was just boning up on the Inquisitor for a pathfinder group I'm about to join and happened to read that, literally just last night.

BTW, the PFRPG advanced player guide is pretty nice.

Yeah, I think the time has come for me to upgrade my 3.5 to Pathfinder. I'm not crazy about all of the changes but overall I think it looks like a more solid game.

Going a bit off-topic here but here's how I see it:

3.5/Pathfinder for when I want a lot of character customization and want to use a lot of minis and whatnot.
Castles & Crusades for when I want things rules-light and fast-paced.

And then my two upcoming flavors:

Crypts & Things for when I want that 'pulp' feel of gritty (but still heroic) Fantasy.
Lamentations of the Flame Princess for when I want horrifying and deadly campaigns in the vein of the Cthulhu mythos or Ravenloft. (Or just deadlier in general, like in Game of Thrones)

Sounds like a pretty nice lineup, covering lots of bases.

My go-to games are:
1. C&C for when I want to just play D&D but without all the fiddly bits (also really like LL for this).
2. ACKS for when I want to really go old school yet with a unique flavor all its own (still trying to get a long term campaign going in this ruleset)
3. 4E when I want to play a deep tactical miniatures skirmish with some RP flavor thrown in.
4. PFRPG for when I want to read about rules for about 6 hours before I make a character (and yes, sometimes I want to do this)

To continue with the new topic and yet bring it back on topic with the thread title, how do these other systems handle losing a spellbook? I'll go read the LotFP PDF sometime later to find out, but in the meantime I'm curious about the other D&Ds, if anyone wants to share, please do.

[alcyone]

In AD&D 1st Edition, there are no special exceptions on Read Magic that I could find, except in the DMG saying the spell was automatically on any magic-user's spell list when starting. Unearthed Arcana has guidelines on the cost of spellbooks, travelling spellbooks, and how long it takes to produce a new standard spellbook (however, it doesn't say anything about what to do when Read Magic has been lost.)

A spell book is 1,000gp for materials, plus 100gp per spell level for each spell inside, and requires 4-7 weeks. By these rules, it would make sense to return to one's teacher to relearn the spell, presumably something similar is happening when a magic-user acquires a spell at each level. But see my next post; if it is like classic D&D, read magic or another scroll or book isn't required, the book is recreated from "memory and research".

[alcyone]

In Rules Cyclopedia there is a section entitled "Lost Spell Books". The spells are recreated from "memory and research", and requires time and money. 1,000 gp and 1 week of study for each spell level replaced. (e.g. a 3rd level spell costs 3,000 gp and 3 weeks to reconstruct.)

A character can make a "backup" of his or her spell book at the rate of 4 spells per day, cost is presumably just that of the spellbook itself. A wise investment, it would seem!

[alcyone]

In Original D&D (lbb) read magic is for items and scrolls, it's unclear what role it plays in spells from books. Prices for lost or duplicate spell books are given. Note that in this system the magic-user has a spell book for each level of spells. The costs are per level: 1=2,000gp, 2=4,000gp, 3=8,000gp and so on.

[Just Jeff]

Unearthed Arcana has guidelines on the cost of spellbooks, travelling spellbooks, and how long it takes to produce a new standard spellbook

Travelling spellbooks. The best thing in the UA. They made life so much easier, provided you had a secure location for the originals.

[treant_on_fire]

Unearthed Arcana has guidelines on the cost of spellbooks, travelling spellbooks, and how long it takes to produce a new standard spellbook

Travelling spellbooks. The best thing in the UA. They made life so much easier, provided you had a secure location for the originals.

Please elaborate! :3

[Go0gleplex]

Basically, the travelling spell book was like a handy travel atlas. Made for the wear and tear of the trail, it allows for the wizard to carry their spells with them while keeping the master book back at their base/home/hidden location or whatever. Should the travelling book get destroyed, the wizard has their maste from which to create a new travelling spellbook. The Copy cantrip was pretty handy as well in such instances.

[Just Jeff]

And instead of carrying a massive tome, you could carry a few much smaller books (the size of a standard RPG hardback, if I recall correctly).

[Lord Dynel]

BTW, the PFRPG advanced player guide is pretty nice.

Agreed. I've been reading mine recently, as one of my player's has been talking up the Summoner class. I wanted to see what he's been fawning over. It's a pretty nice class, but I agree the book - as a whole - is pretty sweet!

I love this conversation, but it's interesting about the mindset of some people I've talked to. I was having a conversation about the 3.5 Wizard bonus feats, and I mentioned Spell Mastery, in the tone of, "hey, let's not forget this feat, which is pretty cool, too." I had the person I was talking to reply with, (and I'm quoting), "Nah, that feat sucks...all is does is allow the DM to @#$% with the wizard player." I was beside myself. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Back in the 1e and 2e days, it was funny because it was something that many a wizards would do - on their own free will - to safeguard their precious spellbook against harm. Nowadays, it's considered a "dick move" by a DM to consider this? That the player's fine having this, "how dare he" attitude towards the possibility of something befalling his spellbook. Maybe it's just me, or the guy I was talking to maybe, that feels this way? I don't know. Sorry for the tangent...I thought it was kind of relevant!

Since there is no rule in C&C concerning a wizard automatically knowing Read Magic, I'd probably rule he'd be S.O.L. in this regard. Getting their hands on a scroll and copying it in a new spell book would be the easiest I'd think, and that'd be for any spell. The rules in C&C allow for copying spells down from memory or scroll. As far as the book itself goes, I would probably do it similar to 1st/2nd edition does it, with a cost per level of the spell, plus materials and time. And I totally agree with the travelling spellbook option...very nice, indeed!

[Go0gleplex]

If one considers the old arguement of the wizard being overly powerful, especially at higher levels, one should also consider that the weakness of the wizard is the vulnerability of their spellbook, which is just another piece of equipment that can be destroyed by various attacks such as fire or acid. Sure, some may consider it a "dick move" as LD pointed out, but never-the-less, it is a valid consequence of adventuring, especially when going against some powerful creature such as a fire breathing dragon. With a destroyed spellbook,that powerful wizard just went from God's left hand, to near dead weight, depending on how well off they are with magic items on hand and how wisely they've been using their memorized spells. Making them have to work for getting their "power" back seems like equitable labor IMO.

[treant_on_fire]

This thread is pretty awesome!

I like how it went into a discussion of Wizards and their spellbooks in D&D as a whole. (All editions and variants)

(I don't have anything of value to add, I just wanted to mention that! ._. )

[Lord Dynel]

If one considers the old arguement of the wizard being overly powerful, especially at higher levels, one should also consider that the weakness of the wizard is the vulnerability of their spellbook, which is just another piece of equipment that can be destroyed by various attacks such as fire or acid. Sure, some may consider it a "dick move" as LD pointed out, but never-the-less, it is a valid consequence of adventuring, especially when going against some powerful creature such as a fire breathing dragon. With a destroyed spellbook,that powerful wizard just went from God's left hand, to near dead weight, depending on how well off they are with magic items on hand and how wisely they've been using their memorized spells. Making them have to work for getting their "power" back seems like equitable labor IMO.

I agree 100%.

[Just Jeff]

If one considers the old arguement of the wizard being overly powerful, especially at higher levels, one should also consider that the weakness of the wizard is the vulnerability of their spellbook.

The backstory for one of my characters included him stealing a wizard's more powerful spellbooks and not giving them back until my character had completed his training (an idea lifted from a movie).

[Arduin]

...and he doesn't have 'Read Magic' prepared. How does he learn spells once more?

Sorry, I'm from 3.5 and we had the Spellcraft skill in case such things happened. I'm sure previous D&D books covered that and it meant most C&C players did not notice but this lack of information is a bit confusing for me. o.O

If a wizard loses his entire spell collection, that's the least of his worries. Finding a low level wizard to teach him the spell would be trivial compared to having to replace all the spells lost. Intelligent wizards put together a back up spell book (safely hidden away) as soon as economically feasible. Prior to 3.x, it was the same as C&C.

[MormonYoYoMan]

...and he doesn't have 'Read Magic' prepared. How does he learn spells once more?

Sorry, I'm from 3.5 and we had the Spellcraft skill in case such things happened. I'm sure previous D&D books covered that and it meant most C&C players did not notice but this lack of information is a bit confusing for me. o.O

If a wizard loses his entire spell collection, that's the least of his worries. Finding a low level wizard to teach him the spell would be trivial compared to having to replace all the spells lost. Intelligent wizards put together a back up spell book (safely hidden away) as soon as economically feasible. Prior to 3.x, it was the same as C&C.

That's why there's Carbonite of Erde - with real carbon.

[Arduin]

That's why there's Carbonite of Erde - with real carbon.