Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:30 am

I was wondering if any of you saw that WotC is putting out Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

I know there will be this tendency to compare with Castle Zagyg, but it occurs to me that this may actually be a blessing. After all, we'll have Gary's vision with Castle Zagyg, and we know it can be imported into Greyhawk. Then we'll have this new dungeon (which I guess is slightly based off of Greyhawk Ruins). Erik Mona is one of the writers of Expedition, and being the Greyhawk fan he is, I'm hoping it will be true to the setting.

Anyway, I don't mean to make this a "versus thread." Rather, I'm sort of excited that there is the possibility of running players through all the various visions of Castle Greyhawk, and that they could theoretically be done in one single campaign.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:10 am

Yes, we've seen it. ^_~`
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:20 am

Of seen the ad for it. I'll buy it, whether its good or not I know the maps will be good.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:31 am

I'm getting Zagyg. I'm one of those fuddy-duddy's that thinks EGG's Greyhawk was superior to the later stuff and I'm not a big fan of Mona. Also I don't want to wade through the stat bloat to run teh adventure.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:48 am

I have Greyhawk Ruins, which I found to be rather boring. I doubt I'll be getting the new version. If you do run a campaign with all the versions of Greyhawk, I advise making an exception for the excremental Castle Greyhawk that TSR put out. It turns the whole thing into a joke dungeon (certainly that, along with other Greyhawk material of the period -- like Gargoyle or Child's Play -- conveyed the message that Greyhawk was little more than a joke).

Ranting aside, it looks like Rob Kuntz will be releasing the Greyhawk material that he owns. For example, Bottle City is listed as an upcoming product.

Korgoth · Post by **Korgoth** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:52 am

Julian Grimm wrote:
I'm getting Zagyg. I'm one of those fuddy-duddy's that thinks EGG's Greyhawk was superior to the later stuff and I'm not a big fan of Mona. Also I don't want to wade through the stat bloat to run teh adventure.

Same here. I've even been considering using my old boxed World of Greyhawk set for my next campaign world and just plugging Yggsburgh into the setting (shouldn't be hard at all).

Greyhawk is a cool old boxed set. I was depressed about Greyhawk for some time after they raped the setting with the big iron stick of metaplot. I might feel better enough at this point to drag out the old box and start over.

[unhinged rant]

Why is it that people can't leave well enough alone? Does it say someplace in the Beginner's Guide to Capitalism that if you even see something suitably described as "Well Enough" you not only can't leave it alone, but most immediately go to Defcon 0 and waste the entire planet? Why is it so utterly impossible to release a good product and just leave it that way, never going back and molesting it for a quick buck?

[/unhinged rant]

Ahem. So anyhow I won't be getting the new thing, particularly after hearing about how they ravaged I6.

That being said, it is a sort of amusing idea, once everything is out, to stage some sort of "Groundhog Day" campaign where the party ends up having to go through 4 different versions of Castle Greyhawk (Goofy Castle Greyhawk, Greyhawk Ruins, Expedition to Ruins and Castle Zagyg). Not that you probably wouldn't end up driving your players insane at some point (particularly if you don't use Goofy Castle Greyhawk first, but wait until they're already on edge to spring it on them). Even worse would be to make them go through all 4 at once: they could randomly "reality shift" between the 4. Make sure you have plenty of antidepressants on hand for the party's Mapper.
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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:09 am

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
I advise making an exception for the excremental Castle Greyhawk that TSR put out.

I'm apparantly the only fan of that module. It was my first introduction to Castle Greyhawk, and I had a ball with it. Joke, maybe, but I've been laughing for years.
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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:20 am

Dragonhelm wrote:
I'm apparantly the only fan of that module. It was my first introduction to Castle Greyhawk, and I had a ball with it. Joke, maybe, but I've been laughing for years.

My problem with it wasn't so much the fact of a humor-based dungeon, but that TSR took the premier dungeon of the setting, which people had been anticipating for years, and turned it into nothing but a joke. Also, I was overseas, and special-ordered from a product list. When it finally arrived...suffice it to say that it wasn't what I expected, and I was terribly disappointed. I remember thinking that TSR seemed intent on ruining the Greyhawk line with bad products.

I'm glad someone enjoyed it, though.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:22 pm

Like Philotomy I ordered the joke Castle Greyhawk without knowing about the joke and was bitterly disappointed. Mind you, I confess that I found the jokes somewhat amusing (though silly), and that I enjoyed reading it to an extent - but I was annoyed because of what it was not and because of what I had expected. Had they called it "Castle Funhouse" I might not have minded. I never ran it (and never would), mostly because I get to game so infrequently these days that I wouldn't waste the time on parody.

I will definitely buy Expedition to Castle Greyhawk (or whatever), although I am also eagerly awaiting Castle Zagyg. Like Treebore, I collect adventures - especially when they have a modicum of nostalgia or when I have a glimmer of hope that there will be some cool/interesting ideas (or even maps) in them. I am loyal to EGG, though, and will consider his Zagyg to be definitive. But I'll still buy, read, and no doubt enjoy the WOTC version.

Call me a gaming slut ....

G

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:36 pm

I'm in the "I was dissapointed" club with the joke Castle Greyhawk. As a big fan of the setting, I was excited about this product. When I got it, I had to shake my head because I couldn't believe how it was set up. A fun part of D&D is the silly things that come out of player interactions with each other and the outcomes of dealings with the various dangers of adventuring. Castle Greyhawk felt like forced sillyness, which was not appealing to me at all. I agree that "Castle Funhouse" would have been more of an appropriate title.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:18 pm

I'll be securing both Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk (because even though it's v3.5 Erik Mona has a pulse for the setting) and Castle Zagyg for sure.

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ZeornWarlock · Post by **ZeornWarlock** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:17 pm

I too will take a look at the Greyhawk Ruins. But it fells odd really. How fast WotC suddenly changed their prospective view on Greyhawk. Especially since they are hearing a LOT of Castle Zagyg lately... Now Greyhawk will oddly come back in the product's line.
ZW.

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:42 am

ZeornWarlock wrote:
I too will take a look at the Greyhawk Ruins. But it fells odd really. How fast WotC suddenly changed their prospective view on Greyhawk. Especially since they are hearing a LOT of Castle Zagyg lately... Now Greyhawk will oddly come back in the product's line.
ZW.

Yep, it is interesting that they released this book after years of "burying" or ignoring any Greyhawk discussion. I'd love to know the inside story. Perhaps, they've flooded the Eberron book market or as you said ZW, CZ is rising on the tide and has those corporate fools' attentions.

I haven't had much interest in the new book, but will have a look at it, if I ever make it to a gaming store. I can then look at the Ravenloft book as well.

In the final analysis though, I just cannot see spending more than $5.00 or so on either book.
In my mind, I always seem to go back to Frostburn. I liked about 2 or so chapters and the rest of the book was pure crap. That seems to be said about so many of the wotc releases. It's a shame really that they're just milking the masses.

[No offense to any that buy it and use it. If you find value then excellent for you.]
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rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:40 am

If they do the same treatment to Greyhawk as they have done with Ravenloft (read: loads of useless and repeated pages) they can eat their book for good.

Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:00 pm

Tell us what you really think, Rabindranath!
While I will buy WOTC's Greyhawk set, I approach it with a lot more trepidation than TLG's version. With TLG, my only worry is that fate will intervene to prevent publication; with WOTC, I worry that it will suck (and having read Rabindranath's comments about Ravenloft - while realizing that MMV - these worries don't go away).

G

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:51 pm

Agreed, I also worry that CZ will never see the light of day, for many and various reasons. That's jsut how I am. Now I might not like the new GH as much (or at all, but praying that Erik Mona and crew to a great job), but I'm pretty sure that it will be released exactly in August of 2007.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:50 pm

Omote wrote:
Agreed, I also worry that CZ will never see the light of day, for many and various reasons. That's jsut how I am. Now I might not like the new GH as much (or at all, but praying that Erik Mona and crew to a great job), but I'm pretty sure that it will be released exactly in August of 2007.

......................................Omote

FPQ

As I understand it, so therefore I can definitely be very wrong, Gary has turned over ALL the maps for CZ and the "heart" material for it. So Gary has done his part of the job. So now it is entirely up to the Trolls to get the two boxed sets for CZ done. It may take them 5 years to get around to it, but I believe CZ will see the light of day, in my hands.

Since it won't be "bloated" with hugely over sized stat blocks you know CZ is going to be packed with goodness, just like Gary always does.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:09 pm

Treebore wrote:
Since it won't be "bloated" with hugely over sized stat blocks you know CZ is going to be packed with goodness, just like Gary always does.

And that is what we are all hoping for. My wish is that CZ BOX SETS will be every bit as good as CZ Yggs.

That being said, in my own mind I have already completely seperated CZ and Castle Greyhawk as two seperate entities, which while similar, have grown in different ways over the years. Say what you will, but EGG has said this exactly: "Castle Zagyg is not Castle Greyhawk." He may have said that for various reasons, but even if he has turned in all of his notes/maps, it still won't be the exact same thing as he originally intended. *shrugs* Just as long as it's good, I'll be a happy, happy camper.

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:10 pm

Considering how Gary described his original maps of Castle Greyhawk/Zagyg no one can say how it would look finished. This is the first time Gary has ever finished those maps, let alone connect them, fleshed them out, etc...

So I am sure he is approaching this differently than he would have 25 years ago, but he is definitely telling the truth, this isn't Castle Greyhawk, since no one ever made a Castle Greyhawk based on Gary's maps.

So this is definitely the one and only Castle Zagyg. Nothing like any Castle Greyhawk, or any other Castle ever seen before.

Man! Lets quit talking about it! Its hard enough waiting patiently by trying to put it in a lock box in the back of my mind. Its torture actually thinking about it!

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:33 pm

Geleg wrote:
Tell us what you really think, Rabindranath!
While I will buy WOTC's Greyhawk set, I approach it with a lot more trepidation than TLG's version. With TLG, my only worry is that fate will intervene to prevent publication; with WOTC, I worry that it will suck (and having read Rabindranath's comments about Ravenloft - while realizing that MMV - these worries don't go away).

G

I am too well-mannered to tell you what I really think
Jokes apart, even if Erik Mona & C. did a good job, there would still be all the bloat of the Delve-crap-and-what-not, which means that of the X$ one spends on the book, about 1/3 will be literally wasted, and all this for the deficiencies of a gaming system.

Oh well, let's hope Castle Zagyg sees the light of the day!

Cheers,

Antonio

Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:52 pm

WOTC has had their chance (more than once!) - tired of their horse kaa-kaa. I'm sticking with TLG's Castle Zagyg!! So, hurry it up guys!!

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:52 pm

Omote wrote:
Say what you will, but EGG has said this exactly: "Castle Zagyg is not Castle Greyhawk." He may have said that for various reasons, ...

For this reason I was a little confused about this thread's comparision. Because, and I can't remember where I got this idea, I thought way back in the 1e days, there was a castle called Castle Xagyg built by a powerful wizard named Xagyg. And as I understood it, that name could not be used because of copyrights and so Gary changed the name to Zagyg. For this reason I did not equate Castle Zagyg with Castle Greyhawk.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:12 pm

ZeornWarlock wrote:
.. it fells odd really. How fast WotC suddenly changed their prospective view on Greyhawk. Especially since they are hearing a LOT of Castle Zagyg lately... Now Greyhawk will oddly come back in the product's line.

I would agree except the fact they released an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft book. They could just be doing a series on castle adventures. I think they are WotC's version of the Wolrds Largest Dungeon/City, Shackled City, and Red Hand of Doom, style adventures.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:09 am

The CZ boxed sets will see the light of day... of that I have little doubt. In fact, I'm sure I'll have at least one of the box sets in my hands before the CKG finds its way in print!

Like a fine wine or a nice and smooth aged whiskey... I'm sure it will be worth the wait!

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Dragonhelm · Post by **Dragonhelm** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:12 am

Dristram wrote:
I would agree except the fact they released an Expedition to Castle Ravenloft book. They could just be doing a series on castle adventures. I think they are WotC's version of the Wolrds Largest Dungeon/City, Shackled City, and Red Hand of Doom, style adventures.

They're making new versions of old adventures/adventure locales. Places that draw a lot of fan interest. Thus far we have Expeditions to Castle Ravenloft, the Demonweb Pits, and the Ruins of Greyhawk. All of them are classic adventure locales.

I'm actually surprised to see adventure type books from WotC again, but I think that's a good thing.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:18 pm

Dragonhelm wrote:
I'm actually surprised to see adventure type books from WotC again, but I think that's a good thing.

My thought on this is that I think the sales of the rules/crunch books are greatly slowing down. Up until this point, WOTC has put little interest into releasing adventure supplements. Now with companies like Goodman Games and some of Necromancer Games adventures selling many thousands of copies, WOTC decided to get back on the adventure module path.

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Korgoth · Post by **Korgoth** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:38 pm

Omote wrote:
My thought on this is that I think the sales of the rules/crunch books are greatly slowing down. Up until this point, WOTC has put little interest into releasing adventure supplements. Now with companies like Goodman Games and some of Necromancer Games adventures selling many thousands of copies, WOTC decided to get back on the adventure module path.

.........................................Omote

FPQ

I also think it's a good thing that they're doing adventures. While they correctly identified adventures as one of the least profitable types of books to release under their business model, they failed to see their necessity to a long-term business plan. Adventures may not generate a ton of money, but I think they really help enliven a game line.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:07 pm

Very true K, good insight.

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Geleg · Post by **Geleg** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:52 pm

It's a fun game to try to figure out the calculus between revenues and/or profitability on the one hand, and intangible benefits on the other. [which is why I'm happy to be a historian and not a marketing or business major]. Undoubtedly for a business the bottom line (i.e. profitability) must drive strategic operations. From an anecdotal perspective, however, it strikes me that buzz, hype, interest can be equally important to a company's long-term success and/or profile [although it is true that buzz cannot save an unprofitable business]. In terms of the RPG industry, my perception is that the kinds of things that people [maybe just the people I know] wax nostalgic about are adventures and settings (and perhaps ... but just perhaps ... initial rule-sets). How many people in these fora and others go on and on about the GDQ series, or Ravenloft, or the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, or Airdhe, or Rappan Athuk, or [pick your favorite] DCC? I never hear (and again this may be my own proclivity) people nostagically recalling the release of "Fighter's Companion v.2" or other non-core rule-books. Now, I'm not saying that people don't buy splatbooks - obviously they do, since they make WOTC profitable (with minis, of course); I'm just saying that they aren't the things that players are likely to reminisce about.

So, even though I have no business-model experience, it would seem to me that a company like WOTC would need to produce stuff that is profitable on a regular basis (splatbooks, minis, etc), but should take equal care to produce a stream of buzz-worthy adventures and/or settings. This may seem like common sense, but as we've already remarked in this thread, there was a pretty long period between the initial buzz of excitement for 3.0 adventures (sunless citadel anyone?) and the last year, when WOTC seems to have decided to get back into the business of making adventures. Not coincidentally, this period marked the period during which dissatisfaction with 3.x began to rise and alternatives (C&C, etc) began to find their niches [there are obviously many other reasons - perhaps more important ones - for dissatisfaction with 3.x].

Anyway, I'm not saying anything new other than that I too am surprised that WOTC fell out of the adventure market for so long, since that market - even if less profitable - seems to me to be the market which will define a RPG company's long term profile, buzz, hype, etc.

I seem to have rambled on for longer than I intended, and indeed am guilty of some minor threadjacking. Sorry!

But my surprise at WOTC's absence from the adventure market is one of the reasons that I welcome WOTC's Greyhawk with anticipation, curiosity, and no small amount of trepidation.

G

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:32 pm

Geleg wrote:
But my surprise at WOTC's absence from the adventure market is one of the reasons that I welcome WOTC's Greyhawk with anticipation, curiosity, and no small amount of trepidation.

I agree with this, even though I worry, I still am excited to see how the project comes out. Despite the company, the Module rleased last month SCOURGE OF THE HOWLING HOARD is pretty solid. It's nothing that hasn't been seen before numerous times, but it is good (if not very basic) none-the-less. I opull adventure amterial from whatever source I can so I picked up WOTC's cheapy mod and was plesently surprised. It is for this reason that I might also pick up their upcoming SHATTERED GATES OF SLAUGHTERGUARDE, BARROW OF THE FORGOTTEN KING and of course EXPEDITION TO THE RUINS OF CASTLE GREYHAWK.

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