SIEGE Engine Basics

[KesselZero]

More newbie questions! Thanks for your patience. So I'm working away at my dungeon and getting ready to run some C&C. I still have one thing that I'm getting hung up on, rules-wise. When using the SIEGE Engine, how do you set CLs? I get that they tend to be set by the level/HD of whomever the PC is opposing, in those sorts of situations-- so saving throws are 12/18 + the monster's HD, and so on.

Where I'm uncertain is in non-opposed situations like that. What about the old swinging-on-the-chandelier move? What about traps (I know the book says it's by the level of the rogue who set the trap, but that seems like a strange way to think about it)? Busting down a door, etc. etc.? The SIEGE Engine as written is already pretty brutal-- you have to roll a 12 or better against a challenge of your own level if you have that stat as prime, and if it's not prime, you're pretty nearly hosed from the get-go. Adding CLs of the sort they recommend, which quickly get very big for difficult tasks, seems like it would make things impossible.

How do you set CLs appropriately? Do you ever just make a straight 12/18 check without a CL added on? How do I calibrate my CL-meter?

[koralas]

Really, there is nothing hard and fast to set a CL for "non-opposed" kinds of things.

Swinging on a chandelier...

• Just grabbing and swinging not trying to land in a particular spot, with no extenuating circumstances, automatic success
• Using the chandelier to swing and land on a particular spot (like the other side of a bench), no extenuating circumstances, CL0
• Using the chandelier to swing over a pool of burning oil, CL2
• Using the chandelier to swing over burning oil and land atop a clear wooden table CL3
• Using the chandelier to swing over a pool of burning oil, sliding over a table, and landing on your feet on the floor, CL4
• Using the the chandelier to swing over a pool of burning oil and land on a narrow ledge, CL5

As for traps, locks, and the like. Balance those with the denizens (or former denizens) of the dungeon. Say you are making a ruined fortress of a powerful knight of old now occupied by Orcs and their minions. Most areas might carry relatively easy CL's of a max of 2 (or if you have a higher level type in the dungeon, perhaps at that level), these are areas that Orcs have rebuilt for their own purposes. However, there could be areas that are protected by higher CL locks or traps, remnants of the original owners, and perhaps they are CL5 or higher.

As shown in the first set of examples, yes, you can sometimes roll a SIEGE check with no CL modifiers. Don't forget, not everything will require a SIEGE check, mundane tasks, given a great description by a player on how they are checking for the pit trap, or if given enough time, a character can succeed automatically. Only use the SIEGE check when there is a real chance of failure.

[alcyone]

In my game, anything an above average person (adventurer) could do that makes reasonable sense in the game reality is usually CL 0; the prime/non-prime and their attribute adjustments and level do the rest. Extreme bits of derring-do, which you might decide chandelier swinging is, might be CL 1 or 2. Once you decide on that sort of thing, there's no need to scale it further with level or anything; coming back next year and swinging on the same chandelier should be easier, and still CL 0.

It's best not to look for some universal yardstick for CLs, in my opinion. Better to say, how hard do I want this to be? What reason do you have to make chandelier swinging hard? Why is the door there? To keep the PCs out forever? For now? To slow them down while the wandering monsters come?

Also, don't get cornered by it; your judgments don't have to trap you. You are ruling on THIS chandelier, THIS door, not all chandeliers ever and not all doors that look like this one. If you get it wrong, do it different next time. Reserve the right to change your mind explicitly, if you have the sort of players who like to throw the book at you.

Rule of thumb; if you want them to succeed, don't check at all. If you want someone suited to the task to have a decent chance, CL 0. If you want it to be hard, CL 2 at low levels, and higher as they level up. If you want it never to work, you can again either not roll, or set it where it's mathematically impossible.

If the thing you want never to work is something you put there in the adventure, ask yourself why you'd do such a thing. If it's just a random thing someone wants to try, it's down to whether the player is doing a reasonable thing in your reality or pushing it, and if they are pushing it, it's not about rolling anymore.

[Aramis]

More newbie questions! Thanks for your patience. So I'm working away at my dungeon and getting ready to run some C&C. I still have one thing that I'm getting hung up on, rules-wise. When using the SIEGE Engine, how do you set CLs? I get that they tend to be set by the level/HD of whomever the PC is opposing, in those sorts of situations-- so saving throws are 12/18 + the monster's HD, and so on.

Where I'm uncertain is in non-opposed situations like that. What about the old swinging-on-the-chandelier move? What about traps (I know the book says it's by the level of the rogue who set the trap, but that seems like a strange way to think about it)? Busting down a door, etc. etc.?

As you note, for most things, the CL will be the level of the dungeon which should range around the level of the PCs. This makes prime checks roughly 50/50 propositions and non prime checks very risky.

For unopposed checks, let me quote myself from a few years back:

As noted by others, for most challenges you use the HD of the opponent. As a corollary, the adventure itself will be set at a certain "level", tied into the level of the PCs. Thus, challenges of a standard difficulty (e.g what kind of trap on the door?) should be around the level of the PCs. A more difficult one would be higher, and so on. In other words, locked chests (etc.) are more difficult in a 10th level dungeon than a dungeon aimed at 1st level characters. This can be rationalised by the better quality goods hidden within, etc.

However, a problem arises with more generic challenges. Is a slippery tree a 10th level challenge in a 10th level dungeon, but only a 2nd level challenge in a lesser dungeon? Why would a chasm jump have a +10 difficulty just because it is in a 10th level dungeon?

For these more generic challenges, I prefer to use a scale like:

CL 1-5 Standard

CL 6-10 Expert

CL 11-15 Olympian

CL 16-20 Superhuman

These classification titles allow me to think about the kind of person required to beat the challenge. An Olympian challenge could only be completed by that rare super athletic person (or brilliant person, for non athletic challenges). A superhuman one could not be completed by any normal man, and should only be attempted by your Conans and Gandalfs

You do hit upon a separate problem when you say this:

The SIEGE Engine as written is already pretty brutal-- you have to roll a 12 or better against a challenge of your own level if you have that stat as prime, and if it's not prime, you're pretty nearly hosed from the get-go. Adding CLs of the sort they recommend, which quickly get very big for difficult tasks, seems like it would make things impossible.

This is especially true for skill monkey types (rogues, assassins, rangers, bards) who make a lot of skill checks. If they are non prime, they will fail often. In fact, at lower levels they may fail more often than other classes with the right primes, but lacking the class skills. The cleric's superior wisdom checks being the classic irritant to the so-called rogue "expert". Various solutions have been mentioned here but you will have to see what works best for you and your players

[KesselZero]

Gret advice all around. Thanks! I like the idea of setting a "level" for the dungeon, then altering that based on some of its realities (who made this lock, trap, etc.)

[Sir Ironside]

Gret advice all around. Thanks! I like the idea of setting a "level" for the dungeon, then altering that based on some of its realities (who made this lock, trap, etc.)

Which is exactly why I like basing things like traps or secret doors or the like dependent on just who set it and what the conditions are.

Take for example a trap that has a poison needle. A novice thief could do this but to higher level thieves could spot it easily. A level 10 thief would know how to disguise the needle better (Even have more knowledge on just what kind of poison and what they want it to do. All poison doesn't have to kill, it can paralyze, make them violently sick and more.) than a level 1 thief.

You could also include the conditions. A level 10 thief that has to throw together a trap, in a dungeon, using only the things available to him, would not have the same CL as a level 10 thief that is prepared.

It serves as a quick and easy method to determine a CL pretty accurately.

[Sir Ironside]

I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but it would be worth it to get Engineering Dungeons, to start you off.

There are also Engineering Castles and Arms & Armour that are both well done and can add flavour and help in creating other things, than just dungeons.

[kreider204]

I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but it would be worth it to get Engineering Dungeons, to start you off.

There are also Engineering Castles and Arms & Armour that are both well done and can add flavour and help in creating other things, than just dungeons.

And my favorite, Towers of Adventure!

[mbeacom]

First, let me say that I agree with pretty much everything mentioned above. I would add that I've also occasionally used a CL-1 or CL-2 (negative 2) at times to make things feel the way I want them too.

But even having said that, this is probably the most significant siege engine basic that I live by:

Failing a siege check doesn't mean the player can't "do" the thing. Instead, I often rule the failed roll a "success" but with some bad side effects. Some call this "failing forward" and it's a very useful principle.

Lets take the chandelier example. Lets say you rule that it's a CL0 to swing on the chandelier to get to the other side of a burning room. They blow the roll. Does that mean they can't swing? No it means they DID swing but something bad happens. Perhaps they successfully landed where they wanted, but now the chandelier has been pulled out of the ceiling causing them to take some damage from falling debris. Now maybe the other players in the group have to find another way to get across.

Another example might be trying to leap on the back of a giant serpent in an effort to choke it into submission. A successful leap might mean the player is on the serpents back and has a good grip. Perhaps a failed roll means the player jumped on the serpents back and is now holding on for dear life so he will take a penalty when he tries to choke it.

Basically, a failed siege check doesn't need to stop the action. It just needs to flavor it in a positive way (success) or a negative way (failure) while still allowing the action to proceed more or less as planned.

[Volomyre]

The Castle Keepers Guide has lots of suggestions for varying CL levels.
Traps and Tracking come to mind.
I know its supposed to be a strictly optional book but for me its a required part of my collection.
I really like that book.
Volo.