Do you make all class abilities prime?

[vivsavage]

Regardless of the character's prime attributes, does your game assume every class ability is automatically prime? For example, in the RAW, an elf ranger might have primes of strength and dexterity, leaving the wisdom-based class abilities of the ranger to be non-prime.

[serleran]

No, I do not make them assumed Prime. However, I do not always make a character roll for an ability. For example, anyone can attempt to locate tracks... a non-ranger has to check regardless, unless they're blatantly obvious, whereas a ranger needs to check only under harsher conditions. If the conditions are really bad, only a ranger can do it.

I think too many people are in the "roll for it" camp. That is not how C&C is intended to play.

[Arduin]

No I don't. I don't see the value in messing with the core rules to that degree.

[Lord Dynel]

Goodness, no. I'm of the opinion that a character might not necessarily be good at all things under the purview of the class. Especially with classes such as rogue, assassin, and ranger. Now, viv, you mention the ranger specifically and I've had some issue with this class, personally, as I don't particularly feel Strength is the proper prime for it...but that's another discussion for another time. As serl stated, I feel, believe, and try to practice, the mindset of not rolling for every single thing. Of course, I also believe that not every character should get a shot of doing something that falls under another class's suite f abilities...but again, a topic for another discussion.

Sometimes a player has to make a choice on what type of skills he wants his character to be good at.

[vivsavage]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric, does have a wisdom prime. He says he'll try to track the creature (challenge base 12, wisdom bonus of +2, no level bonus). He rolls an 11 and adds 2 for a total of 13, succeeding on his roll by 1. Narrating the situation, does the ranger flat-out fail compared to the cleric?

[mbeacom]

Short Answer: I agree with everyone else. No, the primes are what they are and if the skill is based on an attribute that is not prime then the character is simply weaker in that area.

This is a pretty common situation in games with similar rules. Basically, the question that usually comes up is , "Why can my cleric always hear noises so much better than my rogue" when hear noise is based on WIS.

With specificity to your situation, I would ask a question, "What were the conditions?". If the conditions were normal, I'd simply allow the Ranger success in tracking. It's what they do. They don't really need to roll unless theres some serious effort, (or weather) that is keeping them from tracking.

Second, your cleric isn't a tracker (is he?). So if the tracks were easy enough for the cleric to succeed on that roll, the Ranger would be able to do it in his sleep.

Third, I don't generally allow cross class skill attempts unless that skill is not present for some reason and it's something that most anyone would be able to do without much training. So, basically, assuming you deem a check necessary for the Ranger (which I may not have) then the cleric would autofail because if it's too hard for the Ranger, aint no way a cleric could do it. (this also helps avoid the situation where every player rolls to try stuff just because more rolls means better chances for success). Once the Ranger fails, that doesn't just mean that he alone can't find the tracks, it means the tracks are too obscure to be seen by anyone (except perhaps a higher level Ranger). So anyone else trying after that would either autofail, or the difficulty would be seriously increased.

The key, IMO, to the C&C siege engine is only using checks, and yes, only ALLOWING checks when the game/situation/story warrants it. If you start putting in checks where they don't belong, you'll start to see a bit of this cropping up.

[Lurker]

Goodness, no. I'm of the opinion that a character might not necessarily be good at all things under the purview of the class. Especially with classes such as rogue, assassin, and ranger. ... As serl stated, I feel, believe, and try to practice, the mindset of not rolling for every single thing. ...

Sometimes a player has to make a choice on what type of skills he wants his character to be good at.

Rgr on those. I've played characters (and luckily the DM didn't punish me for it) that were purposely not good at some of the class abilities - a "fighter/thief" swashbuckler who avoided finding and disarming traps comes to mind.

However, I will give anyone a chance at succeeding at an attempt, even if it isn't in their class. The fighter that does not know how to track just gets lucky and notices a broken limb and can guess where the wounded orc is headed, etc.

Also, I give a player a chance at something outside their normal character class if it's one of their primes - A fighter with a good wis as prime could get a chance to notice that they are going into a perfect ambush site before they walk into the kill zone.

[MormonYoYoMan]

This reminds me of when attendees at various Oklahoma conventions insisted that I had to run an AD&D session. (I was running plenty of almost-anything-else.) So I ran a STRICTLY by-the-rules AD&D session. The party were running from the law. (Why do so many players want to get afoul of the law in fantasy settings?) They came to the city walls. None of them were thieves, so none of them could climb the wall.

[mbeacom]

This reminds me of when attendees at various Oklahoma conventions insisted that I had to run an AD&D session. (I was running plenty of almost-anything-else.) So I ran a STRICTLY by-the-rules AD&D session. The party were running from the law. (Why do so many players want to get afoul of the law in fantasy settings?) They came to the city walls. None of them were thieves, so none of them could climb the wall.

If nobody had a grappling hook in AD&D they deserve to get caught! It sounds silly but could actually be quite exciting. What would they do next? Hide in a vacant building? Try to impersonate townspeople? Everyone go different directions and whoever gets caught then has to be rescued by the remaining party? Bribe the town guard? Threaten his family with retribution? Fight their way out of the city?

[Lord Dynel]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric, does have a wisdom prime. He says he'll try to track the creature (challenge base 12, wisdom bonus of +2, no level bonus). He rolls an 11 and adds 2 for a total of 13, succeeding on his roll by 1. Narrating the situation, does the ranger flat-out fail compared to the cleric?

Where did the cleric learn to track? Is he a cleric of the god of the wilderness? Or perhaps the god of investigation?

I'm being a little silly, but my point is this what I mentioned at the end of my last post - I think that it's a no-no to arbitrarily allow a class to attempt a class ability of another. Do you (or would you) allow the cleric to try to turn undead?

I think in you example, viv, that under normal circumstances (no inclement weather, on "regular" ground) the ranger should have just found the tracks. A cleric, not being trained in ability to find and follow tracks, may have been able to find them, too, and you're free to allow a check for him to find them (though I'd never let another class actually follow them) but the ranger should have picked up on them pretty easily as long as he says something along the lines of "I'm following the tracks." As another example, I'm reminded of Aragorn finding the tracks of Merry and Pippin in The Two Towers. Now, in that circumstance, I'd probably make the ranger roll. The cleric? Heh, not a chance in hell he'd been able to figure that out.

[Treebore]

Yes, I do. Since day one, and haven't looked back since.

[Sir Ironside]

I'm with Lord Dynal on this one. It simply comes down to training. Lets say, in the real world, I have an IQ of 140 (I wish) but I've studied botany. I have a friend that also has an IQ of 140 but he is trained in physics. He has a physics problem he is having trouble with, if he showed me the problem I'd have no clue what he is talking about. Same applies to skills.

If you do like letting others attempt skills from other classes, I'd probably impose more or higher penalties to the attempt than I would with the character that has the class. Tracking is something everyone could attempt, but to me the penalties are far apart from what the Ranger would get and what the non-class character would get.

Lets say that the environment was raining and the tracks are a day old. For the Ranger I might give him a -3 to track (-1 for the rain and -2 for the time.) Where as I might give the Cleric -10. (-5 for the rain and -5 for the time.) For a difference of -7 between the two. Even though the Cleric has Wisdom as a prime doesn't mean he is better at tracking than the Ranger but he would better than lets say a Fighter.

[Arduin]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric,

I handle it like in the rules. The cleric has ZERO training/knowledge of how to track so, FAILS. Call the S.O.L. hotline.

[MormonYoYoMan]

This reminds me of when attendees at various Oklahoma conventions insisted that I had to run an AD&D session. (I was running plenty of almost-anything-else.) So I ran a STRICTLY by-the-rules AD&D session. The party were running from the law. (Why do so many players want to get afoul of the law in fantasy settings?) They came to the city walls. None of them were thieves, so none of them could climb the wall.

If nobody had a grappling hook in AD&D they deserve to get caught! It sounds silly but could actually be quite exciting. What would they do next? Hide in a vacant building? Try to impersonate townspeople? Everyone go different directions and whoever gets caught then has to be rescued by the remaining party? Bribe the town guard? Threaten his family with retribution? Fight their way out of the city?

Ahhh, but the point (and a weakness of AD&D, at least 1e) was that their class would have to have those skills. In 1978, if your AD&D class didn't say it could do something, it couldn't do it. IIRC, the Assassin had the ability to bribe, but no one else did. I think later the anti-paladin could threaten innocents, and maybe an evil cleric could earlier.

There were no skills. If the rules didn't specifically say you could do something, you couldn't. (Unlike OD&D, in which anything might happen.) AD&D was certainly not C&C (or Traveller or T&T or any "open" game) and, despite AD&D's overwhelming popularity for that short time, I think we're much better off today.

[Treebore]

I wanted C&C to be "Iconic", just like 1E AD&D is. So to me, saying a Rogue, Assassin, Ranger is not well trained in all things class related was like trying to say the Wizard, Cleric, and Illusionist are not well trained at casting their spells. So I decided everything listed as a class ability represents the "Icon", or base line standard, of what it means to be of that "class", "profession", whatever you like to call it. So I decided to go "all in" on the Iconic nature of classes, rather than this half and half potential approach of Prime versus non Prime.

Besides, it isn't like it has made the classes "broken". There are plenty of skills outside of those listed as specific class skills for them to have non Prime chances at succeeding when tried. So for the handful of "class skills" they do have listed, they are going to have the same base line competency as any other member of that class, 12. After all, that is what they were trained to do when they became that class.

[alcyone]

I like that there are tradeoffs when you make a character, and it doesn't bother me if the cleric tracks better than the Ranger sometimes.

[MormonYoYoMan]

It has to feel like the real world to me. And in the real world, anyone can TRY to do something.

Emphasis on TRY.

[Arduin]

It has to feel like the real world to me. And in the real world, anyone can TRY to do something.

Emphasis on TRY.

Correct. I'm extremely dexterous. I have a friend who is a locksmith and is a lumbering, sausage fingered, clumsy guy. I can "try" all day to pick a lock, and fail, that he can pick in his sleep with one hand tied behind his back. Why? I'm untrained and he is trained...

[MormonYoYoMan]

It has to feel like the real world to me. And in the real world, anyone can TRY to do something.

Emphasis on TRY.

Correct. I'm extremely dexterous. I have a friend who is a locksmith and is a lumbering, sausage fingered, clumsy guy. I can "try" all day to pick a lock, and fail, that he can pick in his sleep with one hand tied behind his back. Why? I'm untrained and he is trained...

You just haven't rolled that D20 often enough. Keep rolling! The folks in Vegas tell me that if you keep rolling, your number will come up.

[Arduin]

It has to feel like the real world to me. And in the real world, anyone can TRY to do something.

Emphasis on TRY.

Correct. I'm extremely dexterous. I have a friend who is a locksmith and is a lumbering, sausage fingered, clumsy guy. I can "try" all day to pick a lock, and fail, that he can pick in his sleep with one hand tied behind his back. Why? I'm untrained and he is trained...

You just haven't rolled that D20 often enough. Keep rolling! The folks in Vegas tell me that if you keep rolling, your number will come up.

I have a feeling that a roll of 20 for me, would have to involve a copper jacketed 9mm round.

[Relaxo]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric, does have a wisdom prime. He says he'll try to track the creature (challenge base 12, wisdom bonus of +2, no level bonus). He rolls an 11 and adds 2 for a total of 13, succeeding on his roll by 1. Narrating the situation, does the ranger flat-out fail compared to the cleric?

me personally, I'd sort of fugde it like the cleric accidentally spots something and the ranger then sees it b/c teh cleric pointed it out and then the ranger is all good to proceed.

[Arduin]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric, does have a wisdom prime. He says he'll try to track the creature (challenge base 12, wisdom bonus of +2, no level bonus). He rolls an 11 and adds 2 for a total of 13, succeeding on his roll by 1. Narrating the situation, does the ranger flat-out fail compared to the cleric?

me personally, I'd sort of fugde it like the cleric accidentally spots something and the ranger then sees it b/c teh cleric pointed it out and then the ranger is all good to proceed.

This is also a situation where the Ranger shouldn't roll. If the track is easy enough to follow for someone with no tracking training, the Ranger doesn't even need to roll... Like my example above. If I can pick the lock, a locksmith would have zero chance of NOT being able to...

[Relaxo]

Yeah ish.
If it's hard enough to roll for, the ranger got bad luck and the cleric got lucky.

but yes, if it's like a three year old city boy is like, "hey foot prints!" then, yeah, ranger can spot those automatically.

it comes down to that rule/rule of thumb, use as few rolls as possible.

[mbeacom]

How would you guys handle a situation like this: a 2nd level ranger is trying to track some monster. Tracking uses wisdom as its ruling attribute, but this ranger does not have a wisdom prime (challenge base 18, level bonus +2, wisdom bonus +1). He rolls a 13 and adds 3 for a total of 16. He fails by 2 points. His buddy, a 3rd level cleric, does have a wisdom prime. He says he'll try to track the creature (challenge base 12, wisdom bonus of +2, no level bonus). He rolls an 11 and adds 2 for a total of 13, succeeding on his roll by 1. Narrating the situation, does the ranger flat-out fail compared to the cleric?

me personally, I'd sort of fugde it like the cleric accidentally spots something and the ranger then sees it b/c teh cleric pointed it out and then the ranger is all good to proceed.

This is also a situation where the Ranger shouldn't roll. If the track is easy enough to follow for someone with no tracking training, the Ranger doesn't even need to roll... Like my example above. If I can pick the lock, a locksmith would have zero chance of NOT being able to...

This was essentially my take on it as well. If it's so easy you're willing to let the cleric roll for it, the Ranger should autosucceed.

[Tadhg]

No.

But I do allow all races to have 3 primes!!!

[ThrorII]

We, for full disclosure, I've dropped primes completely (having a 16+ in your prime attribute now gives you a 10% exp bonus) and swithced to a DC15 base. I still add monster HD or spellcaster Lvl to the DC check if it is 'opposed', and I use a DC15 difficult, DC20 very difficult, DC25 Heroic, and DC30 'virtually impossible' for unopposed checks.

I've only ever added primes if the character has the attribute as prime. Whether it is the new DC check, or the old SIEGE engine, however, I've always handled it the same way: You add your level to checks that are class related, don't add your level if it is not in your class realm.

In the above mentioned ranger example, a ranger does not make a check to find basic tracks--he just does. If the tracks are hidden, old, or accross hard surfaces or water, then the ranger rolls. Non-rangers may roll (d20+wis mod) to find or follow the tracks, but never add their level. Non-rangers cannot estimate numbers, types of creatures, how old the tracks are, track across rocks or through a river, etc.

I've ruled that rangers can find food if it is possible in the environment, without a roll. Additional people requires a roll. Non-rangers must roll to find food, and cannot forage multiple times per day.

Same goes for the Rogue trap abiltiy. A non-rogue may roll to find a simple trap (pit trap, etc) as a d20+mod, but never adds their level and has no chance of finding complex traps.

Anyone can climb, if there are handholds (most rock surfaces, trees, etc), roll d20+str mod. A ranger or rogue needs not roll for basic climbing, only rolling for 'impossible' surfaces.

Anyone can try to move silently (except on leaves, gravel, etc), roll a d20 + dex mod. A failed roll means the character was heard. A ranger, rogue, or races with move silently abilites can add their level, and move ABSOLUTELY silently upon a success. A failed roll allows for the opponent to roll to hear them.

Basically, most class abilities can be duplicated with a basic d20+ability mod, but the results are always less impressive than the class ability. The class ability is over and above what normal characters can do.

[ThrorII]

Also, for flat DC challenges, if the challenge is not 'difficult', then no roll is necessary--the character does it. Clerics limbing a tree under normal circumstances? No roll. Clerics climbing a tree when the wargs are chasing you? Roll d20+str mod.

To balance out the removal of primes, I've reinstated level limits and class limits (AD&D2e class resrictions). I cap levels at 12 for humans, and demi's get level 9 for core classes and level 6 for ancilliary classes. If a demi has an 18 in the prime ability of a class, they may increase their level limit by 1 level.

[Treebore]

"Before describing the SIEGE engine attribute check in more detail, it
is important to note that only those activities which have a significant
chance of failure, as determined by the Castle Keeper, should be resolved
by a dice roll."

PH 5th Printing, page 122

[Ronin77]

No, for me, if you chose not to Prime an attribute your skills are based on. Then you chose not take training in those areas. I mean if your a human rogue with 3 primes. And you choose not to place them on stats that are useful to your class your choosing to screw over your character. If you choose to Prime one useful and one that none of your skills are based on you are sacrificing to be more diverse. That is your call.

[Omote]

"Before describing the SIEGE engine attribute check in more detail, it
is important to note that only those activities which have a significant
chance of failure, as determined by the Castle Keeper, should be resolved
by a dice roll."

PH 5th Printing, page 122

This is something that modern players/CKs who love to make a check for everything tend to forget. A very important statement from the PHB.

~O