Alter Self

[Cardinal Thor]

Regarding the spell Alter Self, part of the text reads:

"...the caster also gains extraordinary special attacks and qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision and so on. The caster does not gain any supernatural abilities though."

Does M&T differentiate between "extraordinary special attacks and qualities" and "supernatural abilities"? I have looked, but haven't seen anything specifically labeled as a supernatural ability.

I can see that being left up to the CK, in the typical C&C manner, but the problem I have with that in this particular situation is that I would classify "darkvision, low-light vision and so on", as supernatural abilities because they are beyond what is natural for a human (the baseline race of my campaign setting). If I go by what is natural for a given creature type, well, wouldn't that be all of their abilities?

Is there official guidance on the difference?

Failing that, how have you other CKs been handling the issue?

-CT

[Rigon]

Extraordinary abilities are things that are physical manifestations, such as darkvision, low-light vision, claw or bite attacks, even breath weapons and winged flight. Supernatural abilities would be anything that mimics spells or spell-like effects.

R-

[Relaxo]

Sounds like a holdover from 3.5, where extraordinary and supernatural abilities are clearly defined in the rules. So you could check d20srd.org ... but that's not as rules light and free as C&C, so I think Rigon's guidance above is spot on. When in doubt, do what will be more fun!

[Omote]

Extraordinary abilities are things that are physical manifestations, such as darkvision, low-light vision, claw or bite attacks, even breath weapons and winged flight. Supernatural abilities would be anything that mimics spells or spell-like effects.

R-

Yup. This is exactly how I handle this.

~O

[Cardinal Thor]

Thank you Rigon and all, you've taken a good deal of the fuzziness out of the equation. I can see that ruling clearing up the majority of issues and I'll happily adjudicate anything that remains grey as it comes up.

-CT

[Cardinal Thor]

Same spell, new question.

Can caster cast additional spells while in the altered form?

The text of the spell says you can only change into something of the same creature type, which for gnomes would be humanoids I assume. If a gnome used alter self to take the form of a goblin, could they cast additional spells while in that form?

Also, would they use the items they made appear with the altered form, or could they still use the items they had in their "base" form?

I guess what this line of inquiry is driving at is, is this a genuine change in form or an illusion? If an illusion, rather than a genuine change, it would seem a bit over powered to me because the illusionist could get the special attacks of the new form and use the weapons and armor of the illusion while maintaining the ability to cast additional spells and utilize the items associated with their true form.

How would you rule fellow CKs?

-CT

[serleran]

Spells, by nature, are not "natural." Even when innate. So, no.. you cannot switch to a form and get more spells. Resembling a gnome does not mean you are a gnome. That is what more powerful magic is for, like shapechange, where you actually become the being, as opposed to an "image" of the being.

[Rigon]

Same spell, new question.

Can caster cast additional spells while in the altered form?

The text of the spell says you can only change into something of the same creature type, which for gnomes would be humanoids I assume. If a gnome used alter self to take the form of a goblin, could they cast additional spells while in that form?

Also, would they use the items they made appear with the altered form, or could they still use the items they had in their "base" form?

I guess what this line of inquiry is driving at is, is this a genuine change in form or an illusion? If an illusion, rather than a genuine change, it would seem a bit over powered to me because the illusionist could get the special attacks of the new form and use the weapons and armor of the illusion while maintaining the ability to cast additional spells and utilize the items associated with their true form.

How would you rule fellow CKs?

-CT

I would rule that it is an illusion and the "altered" items would function like the "true" item. My example: I alterself from a wizard carrying a staff into a warrior with a sword. The "sword" would do damage as a staff, since that is what it truly is. You may allow the "sword" to do sword damage, unless the foe disbelieved the illusion first. If that makes sense.

R-

[Sir Ironside]

The first line, in Alter Self, reads, "As with the Change Self..." and in the Change Self spell, the end of it reads, "Creatures get and intelligence save to recognize the glamor as an illusion if the interact with it."

So, Alter Self uses the base of Change Self for its affect, making it an illusion. No ambiguity if the spell is an illusion or full transformation.

[Rigon]

The first line, in Alter Self, reads, "As with the Change Self..." and in the Change Self spell, the end of it reads, "Creatures get and intelligence save to recognize the glamor as an illusion if the interact with it."

So, Alter Self uses the base of Change Self for its affect, making it an illusion. No ambiguity if the spell is an illusion or full transformation.

That's how I read it.

R-

[Lord Dynel]

The first line, in Alter Self, reads, "As with the Change Self..." and in the Change Self spell, the end of it reads, "Creatures get and intelligence save to recognize the glamor as an illusion if the interact with it."

So, Alter Self uses the base of Change Self for its affect, making it an illusion. No ambiguity if the spell is an illusion or full transformation.

I disagree, but only in part. First, the devil's advocate side.

I don't think there's ambiguity, either, for the exact reason you mention, Iron. Change self does indeed state that a save is allowed, but no such save is mentioned in text or on the save line with alter self. I think this intentional as I don't think there's anything to "disbelieve." I think having change self be an illusion spell is like saying polymorph (which could also be considered a more powerful version of change self) is an illusion spell. End advocacy for the devil.

So why couldn't this be ruled as an illusion and a transmutation? The changing of the physical appearance (i.e. everything gained from alter self) is definitely an illusion, but the gaining of extraordinary abilities can easily be ruled a transmutation effect (at least in my opinion). So couldn't the spell be considered both?

On a related note, 2nd edition had change self (1st level spell) an illusion spell and alter self was an alteration spell (what transmutation used to be called). 3.x has it the same way (disguise self being a 1st level illusion spell and alter self a 2nd level transmutation spell).

If I had to rule C&C's alter self one way or the other, I'd say transmutation (and I guess, by my writing this, I am ruling it). I'd rule it that change self veils the caster in another appearance - the very base of appearance-changing illusion spells. Alter self makes an actual physical change, and isn't a veil. The change is both visual and tactile. And not only does the spell change one's appearance, but it gives the recipient the extraordinary abilities of the form mimicked. Whereas you get a cheap knock-off with change self, you get the real thing with alter self...hence the reason for the spell stating that it's an upgraded version of change self. At least that's how I see it.

But if you don't need a "one way or the other" hard-lined approach to it, I don't see why it couldn't be considered both types.

[Big Ulf]

Hey years later but thought I'd go on the same thread, we'll see if that was the right decision:)

Is there a list of humanoids somewhere for easy reference on this spell (not easily laid out in M&T).
And I read that it means you can go up or down one "size" - but since C&C only has S, M, L, then we have to use logic to eliminate the ability for a human illusionist to change into a Cloud Giant I guess.

What about Mermen and that sort of thing? Powerful 2nd level spell...

[Captain_K]

I wondered what got so many folks back tot he boards to post.... to bad its a old memory..

look at other spells of second level power.. +/- 50% size limit on growth.. so let that be a guide to sizes...

"natural creatures only" also seems like a guide, by natural I mean mythic without a tone of spell like abilities

[serleran]

Hey years later but thought I'd go on the same thread, we'll see if that was the right decision:)

Is there a list of humanoids somewhere for easy reference on this spell (not easily laid out in M&T).
And I read that it means you can go up or down one "size" - but since C&C only has S, M, L, then we have to use logic to eliminate the ability for a human illusionist to change into a Cloud Giant I guess.

What about Mermen and that sort of thing? Powerful 2nd level spell...

I thought I had made a list of humanoids (at least those in M&T) in the Engineering Dungeons book... but I haven't looked. Not sure if I also had them added to the CKG or not, but in either case, if present, would not include anything after M&T (so no Classic Monsters, new stuff in newer M&Ts, etc.)

[Big Ulf]

I thought I had made a list of humanoids (at least those in M&T) in the Engineering Dungeons book... but I haven't looked. Not sure if I also had them added to the CKG or not, but in either case, if present, would not include anything after M&T (so no Classic Monsters, new stuff in newer M&Ts, etc.)

hey thanks so much - will leaf through the CKG tonight and look up EngDung. Cheers