Of clerics and wizards

[tylermo]

Would it be much of a game breaker to allow a cleric to trade out a spell of equal or higher level for a cure light wounds spell? That's pretty much the method from D&D, right? I've often wondered if C&C would benefit from wizards and illusionists starting with all cantrips, some at-will spells, or a d6 hit die. Thoughts?

[tylermo]

[quote="tylermo"]Would it be much of a game breaker to allow a cleric to trade out a spell of equal or higher level for a cure light wounds spell? That's pretty much the method from D&D, right? I've often wondered if C&C would benefit from wizards and illusionists starting with all cantrips, some at-will spells, or a d6 hit die. Would that unbalance things significantly at higher levels? Thoughts?

[Rigon]

Tyler, I use the clerical swap for healing. It doesn't effect the game balance any and allows the cleric to have a little more flexibility with spell selection (they don't have to load up on the cure spells). I've also used allowing all spellcasters to cast 0 level spells for free.

R-

[Arduin]

It all depends on how you want the Cleric played in your game world. Since 2nd Edition I've allowed "MU's" to have all cantrips available.

Stay away from the D6 or it will bite you as the MU's gain levels. Unbalancing to a class that is head & shoulders above most others at upper mid & high level.

[DeadReborn]

In the last game I ran (C&C in Ravenloft), I allowed Cerics to swap out for Cure Wound spells. For Wizards of all schools I allowed Detect Magic and Read Magic to be cast at will. None of it seemed game breaking in any way. In fact, I'm thinking of allowing Wizards to cast a few more zero-level spells at will in the next game I run. I've been playing in Treebore's D&D Next game and in that rule set Wizards are allowed to cast zero-level spells at will as long as they were memorized ahead of time.

[Ancalagon]

I never allow the "swap for healing" mechanic.

[Treebore]

I've allowed it since I began running C&C, so for about 7 years now. I like it just as much in C&C as I liked it for the 5 years I ran and played 3E.

As mentioned above, it primarily allows for the healers to cast spells aside from the healing spells.

Also, the full 3E version allows for you to swap all spells at all levels for the level equivalent healing spell. So you can swap any third level spell for the third level Cure Serious spell. I even put the 3E spell, Cure Moderate Wounds, into my C&C games so they have a second level spell with which to swap out.

I also added in the 3E rule that allows you to add your spell caster level to these spells. My difference is, that instead of increasing the spell beyond the dice rolled I only allow them to max the dice out. So if they are rolling 3D8 at 5th level, they can still roll a max of 24 HP, not 29 like they can in 3E. So when they roll the 1D8 for Cure Light Wounds it will still only cure a max of 8 HP, not 13 like it can in 3E.

I do this because it often helps them need 1 or two fewer spells for healing and actually get to use their other cleric spells a little more often.

[Rigon]

I like to cap the swapping at 4th level and I add the clerics Wis modifier. No max limit either. However, I don't allow druids to swap out spells.

R-

[dachda]

I usually have the cleric memorize one Cure spell per day, then he/she may swap any other of his spells for a Cure. But I try to find a balance between the 3rd ed. method and the by the book method, so they must memorize at least one Cure in order to swap out the others.

[Lord Dynel]

I originally house ruled it as such, but I've since gone back to RAW (meaning, not allowing the "spontaneous casting" like 3.x). I don't think there's a game balance issue, but to me it makes cleric players a little lazy. I know, I'm an ass for saying that, but it takes some thinking out of their spell selection for the day if they know they can fall back on a cure spell. I know it makes the cleric less fun if he's a "healbot" and doesn't do anything but heal and buff the party. My two thoughts on that are 1) that's kind of the cleric's job and 2) if you didn't want that to be a possibility then you shouldn't have taken cleric as your class. I believe that sometimes the choice needs to be made that you need to memorize raise dead or plane shift instead of cure critical wounds. Being able to fall back on that cure critical is kind of a cop out, in my opinion, and is one one of the things that makes them an already powerful class. I'm so glad the Trolls didn't put the spontaneous casting rules in as RAW.

My apologies for sounding like a douche bag! I don't intend to. I guess 3.5 has really soured me over the years.

[ArgoForg]

In my game world, the ability to swap out any spells for like (or lower) level cures is a specific ability of priests of the healing deity. They also roll 2 sets of dice for any cure wounds they make and take the higher roll. And so far, that has never done anything to break the game dynamic, so you should be fine.

I tend to add extra clerical abilities to reflect the high-magic feel of my gaming world, so priests devoted to certain specific deities get small boons of their own-- priests of the god of the sun, for instance, can cast light two times a day free and also gain a bonus to turning undead.

[Arduin]

My apologies for sounding like a douche bag! I don't intend to. I guess 3.5 has really soured me over the years.

Not at all. In the original materials on the Cleric class it was noted that one of the measures of wisdom was correctly choosing the day's spells that would be needful. At the level that clerics gain spells that allow data on future, they should use that to help guide their spell selection...

[serleran]

I suppose it depends if you want to make a distinction between priests and general "clerics."

Either way, if I were to allow such a thing, the "free cast" would be at lowered efficiency because the cleric did not ready for it, was not prepared for it, and certainly wasn't going to use it otherwise.

[Treebore]

I go with it because I look at divine spell casters as more of a direct channel of their gods power. So when they pray for spells they are not following a "formula" for each spell they want, they are just following a ritualized prayer that allows them to ask, by name. So when they need to "convert" a spells energy to some other purpose they just do so with a specialized prayer that converts the divine power from being, say, Shield of Faith, to the healing energy of Cure Light Wounds.

I actually allow this for other spells, but for anything other than healing conversions I require SIEGE checks, where the CL is the spell level +3. They add their level and WIS modifier, and if they make the roll, they convert the spell to the new need. If they fail, they lose the spell they try to convert.

So I do not look at divine casting as the "hard wired" spell casting that Wizards do. They are more like a switch board, and with the right prayers these switches positions can be changed. These are prayers, after all, and the underlying use of prayers is to ask a god for something you need right now to save your life, or the life of someone else, and I think gods, especially good aligned gods, would be inclined to do that for their priests in good standing. So I allow divine spell casters to do this.

I also take into account how well the Cleric/Druid has been played in terms of serving their god and religion. IF they have had some failures I would add a SIEGE check to convert healing spells when they normally would not, making it clear to the player they are making their god unhappy. I would also add a penalty to SIEGE checks to convert other spells. Fortunately I have players who rarely, if ever, have their clerics serve their gods badly.

So if I looked at Divine spell casting being as precisely rigid as I do wizard types, I wouldn't allow it either. Since I play all gods in any given game I run, I just ask myself, "Would I allow them to do that if I really were a god?" So that is what I do and why.

[mgtremaine]

I take this one step further in my game

##
Reading a spell from your spellbook, or praying for a different spell. Characters may swap spells if they successfully make an ability check [INT/WIS] with CL being the level of the spell. Failure means they lose the spell for the day, success means it works. It takes 1 full turn to prepare to attempt this + the casting time of the new spell.
##

So spellcaster gain flexibility BUT they may just blow it and lose a spell slot. Also it is not instant swap you need some time and some place peaceful to do this.

-Mike

[captain_blood]

So the Cleric is actually my favorite class to play in just about any setting. That said I greatly prefer settings where this mechanic is NOT allowed. It doen't only make the cleric lazy it makes the whole party lazy. Why should the thief worry about retreating once he got his backtab in if the Cleric can just pop off another cure spell? Why should the magic user work extra hard to avoid melee? But most of all I've found that inclusion of this rule hurts the role play, and possibly removes a great source of group tension. If I'm a Cleric why should I expend my mojo to help a party member who isn't a follower. Part of my job is to collect souls to worship my God. Miracles are a great way to get conversions! I often roleplay out a healing scenario. I bandage the wound first and IF I can get the player to at least pay lip service to my Deity I will cast the spell. I give instructions not to remove the bandage for x amount of time. Imagine how upset the guy who didn't have enough faith will be when his wound isn't healed but the other guy's is? This doesn't work as well in combat obviously, but I can still normally get a few group members to publicly convert.

It's also much more fun to be able to say NO! I can't heal you right now. I have to banish this demon from the material plane that you tried to chop into pieces with a butter knife. Next time think before you act! Clerics already have flexibility from being able to select from all divine spells, they don't have to find/research them all. Requiring forward prep is the only thing that keeps them from being a sorcerer with healing abilities. Making the hard choices of who to save when the stuff hits the fan is part of the fun of being a Cleric. It also means the other players have to respect the Master of Miracles, or at least pretend to.

[Snoring Rock]

Well put Sir Capatain Blood!

I agree. I think the role playng opportunities in the game get lost if you give that kind of power away. Realistically, letting the cleric swap out the spell does not kill a game or throw the balance off. But I prefer playing it like it is written. I expect clerics in my game to withold healing. In fact, in our current campaign, if you were to sit in on a session, you may have a hard time figuring out who the cleric is. He is an elven cleric wearing light armor and wielding a bow. He casts few spells until the battles are over and healing only goes to those who pay homage to his deity. The point is, clerics do heal, but thay are not, and should not be, the party medic.

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

I am not bashing those who allow it. There are so many different ways to play this game, different groups, thus different play styles. Its all good. My game happens to be low on the cleric is a medic scale.

[mgtremaine]

These are all great points, especially on the role of the cleric, which is one of my favorites and one of the most difficult to play well. I will add that with my house rule that allows swaping in the last 3.5 years it's been used less then 5 times and never for healing . [Of course the current group has 2 Druids, 1 Wizard, 1 Illusionist and ZERO clerics.]

-Mike

[DeadReborn]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

I am not bashing those who allow it. There are so many different ways to play this game, different groups, thus different play styles. Its all good. My game happens to be low on the cleric is a medic scale.

In the game I ran, it was really just a precautionary measure. To my recollection, it wasn't needed more often than not, I just wanted the PCs to have the option. That, and I'm a big softee who hates to see characters die.

[Arduin]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

[Snoring Rock]

Arduin, dude you make me laugh so hard. Right on!

[Treebore]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

4) the party doesn't have uber AC's and can actually be hit.

[Arduin]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

4) the party doesn't have uber AC's and can actually be hit.

Really? I had dozens of groups with average AC's and they didn't require that the Cleric be able to swap out spells. Sooooooo, back to 1,2 or 3....

[Treebore]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

4) the party doesn't have uber AC's and can actually be hit.

Really? I had dozens of groups with average AC's and they didn't require that the Cleric be able to swap out spells. Sooooooo, back to 1,2 or 3....

Guess your groups roll like crap. Actually, I guess that means you roll like crap. Until AC's start getting above a 20 they get hit pretty often. Even then it can happen a lot. Like when I ran the Against the Giants series, twice, in C&C, the giants hit a lot. Especially the Frost Giants. To the point where several PC's died. I also became famous for rolling a "1" on saves for the major bad guys. My players still laugh about those rolls. Especially since it tended to be for Dragons. Very irritating.

[Snoring Rock]

Ok, so on the same vein, the same should be fair for the druid right? Te druid should also be able to swap out spells. But should he be able to swap for healoing or for plant spells, or animal friendship?

[Treebore]

Ok, so on the same vein, the same should be fair for the druid right? Te druid should also be able to swap out spells. But should he be able to swap for healoing or for plant spells, or animal friendship?

I went with the same theme of 3E there as well, Animal Summoning spells. I also took an idea from another 3E product and added an "elemental path" to the wild shaping options.

[Arduin]

Guess your groups roll like crap. Actually, I guess that means you roll like crap.

You guessed wrong, like crap. Not unsurprisingly.

[ArgoForg]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

Actually, when we have done it, we have done so mostly so that at early levels the cleric can actually have some choice of spells rather than just being forced into grabbing one or two cure lights just to make sure the 8 HP ranger doesn't kick off thanks to lucky swings by a couple orcs.

We also saw that it gives the players the freedom to be a little reckless, or at least not have to be careful to the point of squeamishness or force themselves to overplot/tactic/"squeeze out every bonus they can pull out of their rear end" when it comes to fighting monsters... or worse, for that matter, metagame. Then too, we tend to play a pretty high-magic, action-heavy seat-of-the-pants sort of narrative game. Others' MMV.

[Lord Dynel]

All that said, this brings into the discussion, another thought. Why does your party get hurt so often that it requires your cleric to swap out healing spells? Are they fighting when they should be running? Are they careless? Do you need to make healing scrolls and potions more common in your game?

Three possible answers to that. 1) The PC's are terrible at tactics. 2) The GM has certain deficiencies. 3) Combo of 1&2...

Actually, when we have done it, we have done so mostly so that at early levels the cleric can actually have some choice of spells rather than just being forced into grabbing one or two cure lights just to make sure the 8 HP ranger doesn't kick off thanks to lucky swings by a couple orcs.

We also saw that it gives the players the freedom to be a little reckless, or at least not have to be careful to the point of squeamishness or force themselves to overplot/tactic/"squeeze out every bonus they can pull out of their rear end" when it comes to fighting monsters... or worse, for that matter, metagame. Then too, we tend to play a pretty high-magic, action-heavy seat-of-the-pants sort of narrative game. Others' MMV.

There's no wrong way to do it. It certainly won't break the game to allow clerics to spontaneously cast healing spells. Other classes don't get that luxury, though, so I don't see why clerics should.

I look at it from, what I feel, a practical standpoint. The fighter fights. He's purposely "built" that way. He don't, usually, carry around an extra suit of armor and when encountering an easy fight decides, "ah, I want to practice my swashbuckling!" changes armor and starts prancing around the battlefield. Same with the wizard. No armor, no longsword, no shield. He studies in the morning and he's set for the day. The same can be said of most classes. They have a particular purpose and a set of rules built around them to fulfill that purpose. Now, "fairness" is subjective, I'll preface, but I don't think it's fair to the balance of the game to allow such thing...even though I said earlier it wouldn't break the game. I don't think it will break it, but it gives something to the cleric that no one else has. So in a balance vs. brokenness sense, I feel it's fine. The cleric can fight. He's a 3rd-tier fighter, certainly, but he's more than capable. And he gets spells. Now, I don't think he should get to memorize some spells, and when something happens decide, "oh crap, better call <insert god here> on the Red Phone and get some healing!" Going into an underground lair of unspeakable doom? A ruined moathouse? Caves of chaotic horror? Yeah, you better memorize a lot of healing. Going to negotiate peace with warring elves and dwarves? Going on an investigation through a metropolis? You can go light on the healing. I think it's part and parcel of the cleric to have to wisdom to know what spells he's going to need for the day.

[ArgoForg]

There's no wrong way to do it. It certainly won't break the game to allow clerics to spontaneously cast healing spells. Other classes don't get that luxury, though, so I don't see why clerics should.

I look at it from, what I feel, a practical standpoint. The fighter fights. He's purposely "built" that way. He don't, usually, carry around an extra suit of armor and when encountering an easy fight decides, "ah, I want to practice my swashbuckling!" changes armor and starts prancing around the battlefield. Same with the wizard. No armor, no longsword, no shield. He studies in the morning and he's set for the day. The same can be said of most classes. They have a particular purpose and a set of rules built around them to fulfill that purpose. Now, "fairness" is subjective, I'll preface, but I don't think it's fair to the balance of the game to allow such thing...even though I said earlier it wouldn't break the game. I don't think it will break it, but it gives something to the cleric that no one else has. So in a balance vs. brokenness sense, I feel it's fine. The cleric can fight. He's a 3rd-tier fighter, certainly, but he's more than capable. And he gets spells. Now, I don't think he should get to memorize some spells, and when something happens decide, "oh crap, better call <insert god here> on the Red Phone and get some healing!" Going into an underground lair of unspeakable doom? A ruined moathouse? Caves of chaotic horror? Yeah, you better memorize a lot of healing. Going to negotiate peace with warring elves and dwarves? Going on an investigation through a metropolis? You can go light on the healing. I think it's part and parcel of the cleric to have to wisdom to know what spells he's going to need for the day.

And I can totally understand that... that's a very reasonable and rational way of looking at it-- it makes sense to expect that sense of wisdom from a character, (or even from a player) especially an experienced one-- and I can see where some might even consider it a fairness issue. In my current campaign world, like I said, it's even a boon specifically for priests of the healing deity, which dilutes it further, although it can be argued that not every archetype gets those sort of boons, either.

I don't personally see it as a game-breaker or even unfair. Sure, no other class gets the luxury of burning off higher level spells for healing. But no one can fight as well as the fighter, no one can insta-kill like the assassin, no one can pick pockets like the thief, no one can match the offensive spellcasting of a wizard, and if any of the players of these classes and others wanted to work with me on something similar in certain situations, I would certainly give it open ears, even if I ruled otherwise... say the fighter wanted to swing from the chandelier and leap onto the bad guy, and offered to trade off three points of AC for the entire round to gain a +2 to hit his quarry. I would most likely be just as open to something like that as I would burning off higher level spells for cures. I tend to play fast and loose with the rules like that.

That style's not for everyone, I understand. And I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone who doesn't like the idea. But fortunately, like you said, there's no wrong way to do it, and that's one of the reasons I hold C&C in such high regard... it's easy to tweak without breaking it.