Reload time for crossbows?

[tylermo]

Had a couple of character deaths at the hands of orcs with heavy crossbows. I don't think the phb specifies any sort of reload time for bows, so I'm curious how you handle this in your game. I've been allowing pc's and villains alike to load and shoot in the same round. Even if that's wrong, I've been consistent. Even with increased AC (due to cover), our elven assassin/wizard was hit twice. My orcs were rolling 19's and 20's. The damage was into negative numbers, and the fall from a tree branch added another d6. -14...dead.

[redwullf]

I use the "industry standard" for this. Hand and Light Crossbows can be loaded and fired in the same round (assuming no movement takes place) while Heavy Crossbows take a round to load and can, thus, be only fired every other round. I generally assume that to load a heavy crossbow the bowman must attach a winch (or, more accurately, a "cranequin"), wind it to pull the string back, remove the winch, insert the bolt, and fire. Allowing this to fire every other round is generous.

[Lord Dynel]

I use the "industry standard" for this. Hand and Light Crossbows can be loaded and fired in the same round (assuming no movement takes place) while Heavy Crossbows take a round to load and can, thus, be only fired every other round. I generally assume that to load a heavy crossbow the bowman must attach a winch (or, more accurately, a "cranequin"), wind it to pull the string back, remove the winch, insert the bolt, and fire. Allowing this to fire every other round is generous.

Sounds good to me.

[tylermo]

Whoops. Even though it's not in the C&C phb, I thought I remembered something like this from 3.5? Anyway, I can't remember if the assassin/wizard took heavy crossbow damage in the previous round, but the final killing blows (down to -10 actually) happened in the same round from two different orcs. As for the knight who fell to -5, I think his hit points were low and the damage from one attack lowered him significantly. It was the party's cleric who was taken down to -14. My memory is foggy, but he may have taken damage from a bolt earlier, perhaps from a scimitar as well. My damage rolls were brutal anyway. Either way, I'll be incorporating this rule into future sessions. The c&c phb has notes about various weapons (denoted with an asterix). Perhaps the reload info could be added to future printings.

[serleran]

I allow the use of a cho-ku-no like device which is a pre-loaded "clip." This modifies the weapon to reload one per round for 6 rounds but decreases range by half; damage remains unaffected. Any crossbow (except hand/pistol) can get it. Costs 400 GP (800 for the heavy version) and is considered "expert" so it may be hard to find in some places or be unavailable.

Otherwise... any light crossbow is 1 / 2 rounds; heavy is 1/3 rounds.

[redwullf]

I allow the use of a cho-ku-no like device which is a pre-loaded "clip." This modifies the weapon to reload one per round for 6 rounds but decreases range by half; damage remains unaffected. Any crossbow (except hand/pistol) can get it. Costs 400 GP (800 for the heavy version) and is considered "expert" so it may be hard to find in some places or be unavailable.

Otherwise... any light crossbow is 1 / 2 rounds; heavy is 1/3 rounds.

Tylermo, as you can see from Serleran's post, you'll be presented with multiple viewpoints and ideas. House rules are great, and the variety of choices is a good thing But, I want to clarify that my suggestions tend to come from 1st edition AD&D whenever possible, because I feel that it is that version that C&C most lovingly embraces. In the AD&D PHB on pg 38 in the table "Hurled Weapons and Missiles" the light crossbow has a rate of fire of 1 and the heavy crossbow a rate of fire of 1/2.

Enjoy.

[serleran]

Indeed, 1st edition (and OD&D) should be the primary source for "thinking" like C&C. However, I sometimes waver away when I find them too lenient.

[tylermo]

These same characters took a beating from some of these orcs about a day and a half earlier. The party had two horses, but lost one to heavy crossbow fire. I was probably lenient in letting three humanoids escape on the one remaing horse. Not to mention there would have been reduced movement. But, I digress...Back to the issue at hand...The assassin/wizard had a heavy himself, and used it some in the final battle. All were reloading and firing the same. As for the odds...1st level knight, 2nd level cleric, and 2nd assassin/1st wizard vs. 8 orcs (4 hp 14 ac) with heavy crossbows and scimitars, and 1 ungern. Despite two pc's dying, there were some nice moments before hand. The knight slashed an orc to death, and the our cleric cracked the skull of another adversary before crossbow fire would take them down. Actually, the knight is -5. But anyway...I agree about defaulting to 1E. Thanks, guys.

[captain_blood]

I normally go with the standard 1e 1/2 for light, 1/3 for heavy. If I'm feeling generous though I'll let a PC try to do it faster if they have sufficient strength (17/18(xx)) and weight. Cocking crossbows is not easy. You have to pull in both directions, because as you pull back on the string you have to pull forward or stand on the bow to keep it from moving with the string. A light crossbow has something like 150 lbs of resistance so it takes 300 lbs of force to cock it. So if a char has sufficient str and mass (no halflings, elves, or small humans) I'll let them get away with a faster rate of fire for a couple of rounds, but it's very tiring and they are fatigued after 3 rounds. Not even 18(00) is going to be able to fast cock a heavy crossbow though, they have draw weights of 450 lbs or more. The deadlift record (legs/back) is only 1015 lbs, and fast cocking a crossbow is an arms only lift.

[Go0gleplex]

For a while, our group had a STR based reloading time for crossbows. Lt x-bows could be reloaded and fired in the same round by anyone with a STR 10+; less than 10 did the every other round bit. Heavy x-bows could be reloaded and fired in the same round when using a goat's foot and having a STR 15+, otherwise it was every other round.

[Snoring Rock]

Uh....so I have never seen the 1/2 (light---1/3 (heavy) rule anywhere. Where did that come from? I know AD&D was 1/2 for heavy. That brings up more questions, like, since they were historically used by untrained soldiers, they were simpler to use than a bow. Shouldnt they have a bonus to hit of much greater damage? Why pay so much for a weapon that loads so slow and has no real advantage in combat?

The crossbow is broken. If given a choice in real life, crossbow hands down. In fact in most states, hunting with a crossbow must be done during firearms season. So shouldnt it be a better weapon even if it loads slowere? Somebody fix the crossbow for me.

[Lord Dynel]

Uh....so I have never seen the 1/2 (light---1/3 (heavy) rule anywhere. Where did that come from? I know AD&D was 1/2 for heavy. That brings up more questions, like, since they were historically used by untrained soldiers, they were simpler to use than a bow. Shouldnt they have a bonus to hit of much greater damage? Why pay so much for a weapon that loads so slow and has no real advantage in combat?

The crossbow is broken. If given a choice in real life, crossbow hands down. In fact in most states, hunting with a crossbow must be done during firearms season. So shouldnt it be a better weapon even if it loads slowere? Somebody fix the crossbow for me.

Well, Rock, I don't know if theis is the "fix" you want, but this is what the CKG says:

However, the crossbow can only be fired once a round for the light crossbow and once every two rounds for the heavy crossbow. If the crossbowman possess the necessary clasp and handle on their belt, they can increase the rate of fire of the heavy crossbow to 1 bolt per round.

I know that's an optional source, and there's nothing in the PHB to verify it, but this is definitely what I'd go with. Further, I'd rule the following actions possible in a round with the weapons:

Light crossbow - move, reload, and fire (all three)
Heavy crossbow - reload (w/o clasp), reload (w/ clasp) & fire, or reload (w/ clasp) & move (I would not allow reload/fire/move in the same round, clasp or not)

Finally, I'd probably use the rules (also on pg. 256-257 of the CKG) that allows for the bow to be fired at a higher rate, at the expense of accuracy (ie. a to hit penalty). Also, remember that crossbows grant no damage bonus for high strength (PHB pg. 130).

My feeling on this, Rock, is that the weapon had to be balanced for mechanics and price. That's probably why it appears broken. The changes I propose (along with rules already present in the PHB and the CKG) would bring it back in line, I feel, with a bow.

Thematically, I'd have the town guard and militia (and the like) use them because like you said, they are simple weapons for simple folk.

[Snoring Rock]

D'oh! I missed that in the CKG! Ok, I like that source a lot. That makes sense and I like your addition thoughts on it as well. I need to check the range, maybe that will, explain the price some what.

[Arduin]

I need to check the range, maybe that will, explain the price some what.

Simple to use doesn't mean simple to manufacture. Especially pre-industrial times. But take heart. A long bow is often useless underground where the ceiling height won't permit its use...

[captain_blood]

Uh....so I have never seen the 1/2 (light---1/3 (heavy) rule anywhere. Where did that come from? I know AD&D was 1/2 for heavy. That brings up more questions, like, since they were historically used by untrained soldiers, they were simpler to use than a bow. Shouldnt they have a bonus to hit of much greater damage? Why pay so much for a weapon that loads so slow and has no real advantage in combat?

They were used in mass by untrained bowman because they were point and shoot, much like a musket. That was the sole advantage. Trained bowman, with longbows, could fire farther and faster. Obviously the musket ended up replacing both because they had the crossbow's direct fire, longbow's range, ease of manufacture, and they could made to easily double as a bludgeon or spear with bayonet. Also a small ball of lead is easier to produce then bolts.