Fallen Paladins

[KaiserKris]

I just got back from running my regular campaign in which, for the first time, I had to remove a Paladin's status. The character in question has not been evil in any meaningful sense, but he's repeatedly violated some of the expectations of behaviour of a chivalrous warrior. The thing for me is that Paladins are to be held to a higher standard than, say, a regular good-aligned warrior. Finally, his goddess told him flat out that he needed to abandon his current party and go on a campaign of absolution in the Howling North to battle demons. Feeling that he could not abandon his current quest, he refused her commandment and he has lost his Paladin status.

Currently, he's a Warrior (that is, he has the d10 hit dice and the good BtH, but no special abilities). Eventually, it's likely that he will start learning some of the craft of a Fighter. I think the conditions are such that a question of redemption is out of the question- his alignment's shifted to NG and he turned down the goddess's commandment directly. I don't imagine he'll be made an active target of his former order as things currently stand, though they'll likely abjure all contact with him and avoid him stringently.

I was wondering how you all have handled this issue when it's come up in campaigns before, if it has. For the record, the player, while a little sorrowful that he's missing out on all the cool Paladin powers, is actually kind of excited about it from a character development point of view. He had the chance to make his choice and he made it.

It's a little sad in one way, but it's also probably the most dramatic and fascinating character development I've ever GMed. We'll see what the future holds for an ex-Paladin.

[Go0gleplex]

I've only had to do this once myself in all the years I've been playing/DMing. The Paladin committed a foul crime against an innocent and was encompassed in a foul miasma that immediately stripped him of his abilities. When he visited his temple, the clergy shunned him and the head priest himself treated him with the utmost contempt even as he told the Paladin his fate. I forget exactly what I had him do to regain his powers, but I think it was along the lines of freeing a fiefdom from the clutches of an anti-paladin and his followers/servants. I also allowed the former Paladin a chance to convince the other PCs to accompany him on this task, though any rewards beyond looting were coming out of his pocket. The only absolute condition was that he had to face the evil boss alone when it came to that point.

My player didn't take my judgement in the same good stride as yours did....eventually dropping out of the group some weeks later in a childish snit.

[KaiserKris]

This particular player pretty much knew it was coming sooner or later, that is, having to make that final choice. It was less about a single grevious error than about a long string of smaller ones. His goddess takes Law and Goodness both very seriously- his problems were more with the Lawful side, than with virtue. I doubt he'll fall into evil or anything like that. I think the other players were more shocked than he was. When he got his ultimatum from the goddess, his jaw just set and he did what he felt was right. Which is something that takes, in character, real courage. And out of character, he knew that he'd lose a lot of cool powers permanently for it, especially in a setting where they deal with a hell of a lot of evil extraplanars.

It was actually a really good Moment at the table, because I think that sort of irrevocable chance can be more impressive than simply killing a character. It also provided some serious Mood Whiplash from some seriously lighthearted moments not too long before, one involving a dwarven comrade under a fear spell (and the messy consequences of unrelenting terror and rolling 1s!) and another involving a pair of lusty maids.

[Sir Ironside]

Sounds like just some solid fun role-playing. Point is, everyone is having a good time and seem to be really into it. In a rpg time of power-mongers getting back to the basics is nice.

I've only had one experience. I put a Paladin in the situation that in order to resurrect a important party member (Like they were instructed that he had to live.) the only immediate way was to make a deal with a demon that required the Paladin to drink his blood. So, to do good he had to drink the blood and not to drink the blood puts into the question of his Paladinship (I know that isn't a real word). Both options were open to him with no clear outcome. If he drank the blood, would the gods take notice of the act and let him remain a Paladin? Or, cast him aside for such a hideous act? If he didn't drink the blood, would the gods view him as abandoning what was right and lose his powers? Or, would they weigh that the abandonment was the lesser evil of the two and he could remain a Paladin?

Yep sucked to be him, but it greatly increased everyone's enjoyment and it built even a greater bond between the player and the character.

Not gonna say what he did or how it turned out. But, I will say it lead to some comical almost slapstick role-playing that followed afterwards.

[serleran]

A commandment to abandon allies to go fight some demons might not be "lawful" or "good" so the paladin may have been in the right to do such. Without knowing more about what was happening previously, or the current situation more in-depth, I'll go with the assumption that the party wasn't in dire need of his presence and that the demonic uprising was... which makes it an interesting dilemma. I'd reward the paladin for standing up for his group, but strip him of paladinhood (maybe; that's not something lightly done, in my game once a character earns the right)... perhaps even attracting the attention of some other LG deity, maybe one of brotherhood or guardianship. In this way, through atonement in a new faith, return to paladinhood might be possible?

[Lurker]

Now paladins are my favorite class, soooo I was looking forward to a good juicy post & debate on this, However .... It simply sounds like a GREAT role playing experience

Like you, I think they should be held to a much higher standard than simply a LG fighter/knight, so if he is does break the standard, he must get what is coming to him. Especially as you said he'd had multiple warnings.


The only thing I'd add is that for my views, the Paladin must follow the "natural law" - I don't want to get preachy here, so it is biblical view of good and the John Locke/Jeffersonian view of law, but can and must fight or ignore unjust law. I've played with other DMs that had the "a law is a law" mindset and hammered me for breaking a wrong law because I was lawful... Ok, I'll stop chasing rabbits

To me the hing pin in it being a 'good' role playing is that he was ok with it and as you said, it is a great character development.

Now, I'd say that he would be 'redeemable' if the player wanted it, but as he refused the goddess' offer, I doubt that. However, I'd say that would open the door for a NG god/goddess to recruit him. I remember an old Dragon article about paladins from other alignments. You may want to introduce some of them as he adapts from his old LG to his new NG status. Especially with the fall being based on not a virtue issue but a lawful issue. That would be the icing on the cake for the character development, and pay him back for doing what he felt was right despite the great cost.

[Go0gleplex]

Yeah...I remember that article Lurker. Also had one about powers based on the deity rather than just the run of the mill powers. I once ran a paladin devoted to a sea god and could breathe water for a bit, summon a hippocampus rather than a warhorse, and something else in exchange for a couple of things. It was a really fun character to play. It also gave a different alignment to play since the sea god was chaotic good...not just evil, but fire creatures were arch enemies.

[KaiserKris]

I'll definitely be looking at his gradually gaining some sort of class-based powers again, whether it be a divine exemplar of a different kind or simply honing his existing martial capacities into something more impressive. For now, though, he's hardly helpless (though somewhat diminished), given his attributes, attack abilities and equipment. In any case, while Adaris of Andoran might be down, he's hardly out. Evil had still best beware!

Also, the party wizard's alignment got changed from NG to N as she gets ... increasingly interested in her magical power. Which is also an interesting development. Also, our CN rogue is on the verge of an Official Alignment Chance to CG. Only the good ol' LN Dwarven cleric is remaining relatively static, haha.

[redwullf]

Of course there's always atonement to set things right again. But, that's a pretty high level spell. Not sure what level the fallen Paladin is...

[KaiserKris]

The thing is, I don't think he wants to atone. I think the paladin in question truly believes that his goddess is in the wrong in this case and wants to persue his own path of goodness. Thing is, in a world where the gods are largely distinguished by their power levels, rather than their superiority of morality or wisdom, he might be right.

He could also be disastrously wrong, but in the context of the campaign, the decision was legitimately a tough one and he's doing what he believes is right.

It's not about "punishing" a player for poorly roleplaying a paladin or anything, just about the natural consequences of following a path in opposition to his deity. If he were simply a knight or a warrior in the service of the deity, it might be more easily understood or forgiven by her, but a paladin's supposed to be a bit more than that.

[Treebore]

I agree with holding a Paladin to a "higher standard", but not any higher than any Cleric or Druid. They are the true representatives of their gods. I look at Paladins being "The Three Musketeers" for their respective religion and its leaders.

Plus, I have never had a Paladin fall. This is becuase since the Paladin is well schooled in what is expected of them I always tell them when they are about to do something, or have been doing something, that will cause them to lose their status. I have never had a player choose to fall after being warned.

In this case, it sounds to me like this goddess wanted this Paladin to fall, to prove himself for something even bigger down the road.

[Arduin]

I look at Paladins being "The Three Musketeers" for their respective religion and its leaders.

Hmm. According to the class description, their only master is the deity. Not religions leaders. That would put them not under the clergy...

[Treebore]

I look at Paladins being "The Three Musketeers" for their respective religion and its leaders.

Hmm. According to the class description, their only master is the deity. Not religions leaders. That would put them not under the clergy...

Right. They are charged by their deity to protect the religion. So that means, typically, they protect the religious leaders, their temples, and other "big picture" interests. They will do whatever it takes, even some questionable things, as long as whatever the actions they take are to preserve/defend the religion. They just won't resort to evil or fully chaotic acts to do so.

So the bottom line is, they will not only sacrifice their lives, they will sacrifice their souls, if that is what is needed. So if it is called for, they will even "fall", if that is what is needed to preserve/protect the religion. A true Paladin will then seek redemption/atonement. If not, they were never truly committed in the first place.

So a Paladin will eradicate evil whenever possible, because evil is always a threat to the church/religion. They will always protect a holy place. Church, shrine, whatever. They will always protect those in service to their god, whether Cleric, Priest, fellow Paladin, Monk or lay person. They will do good deeds whenever possible. So when higher duties allow, they will aid the poor and those in need of help the Paladin can provide. Which to me is why a Paladin is "poor". Not because they give all their money that they gain to the Church, but because they use it to feed, house, and otherwise help those in need where ever they go. So while they tithe 10% to the church in my games, the rest I expect them to use to help others, or save up to build new temples in new locations, etc... So while they may be carrying 20,000 gold on their person, they have no intention, or desire, to spend that gold on themselves. Unless it is to buy better armor, weapons, etc... to enable them to better survive to serve the church. Aside from that, they will eat well and live well (but not extravagantly, just good food, good clothing, and a good, solid, safe home), but any money left over will be used to help those in need whenever the Paladin can use it to do so.

It all boils down to what they have time for. Like the last Paladin that was played in my games was always busy fighting forces of evil. So did not have time to do more mundane things to help with the more common problems. That game was based on modules such as the "Against the Giant" series and we went all the way through the Lolth module. So that Paladin accomplished a lot of good. Very little of it visible to the general populace. Since he lived through all of that, it was assumed that he would go on to use his accumulated wealth to do "good" that he was unable to do before. We hope to one day return to those characters, so I will hopefully get the chance to see what that player actually does.

So I do not look at Paladins as a "black and white" kind of character. They are willing to get a little "dirty" to do what needs to be done. For them, the end does justify the means, to a point. They can, and will, do "questionable" things if it furthers the goals of their religion. They will not do clearly evil or chaotic things. If they do "fall" they will immediately strive to regain their status. If they change their alignment, they will work to regain their alignment and status back.

If they are too weak, and uncommitted, to do so, then their god definitely does not want them in their service anyways. They only want the truly committed, who will do what is needed without hesitation. Whether that is to sacrifice their status, reputation, life, or soul.

[Arduin]

Right. They are charged by their deity to protect the religion. So that means, typically, they protect the religious leaders,

No. That's a bit different than the description in the rule book. Subtle but, an important difference.

[Treebore]

Right. They are charged by their deity to protect the religion. So that means, typically, they protect the religious leaders,

No. That's a bit different than the description in the rule book. Subtle but, an important difference.

This is C&C, I don't care what the book says. I defined what I, as the CK, expect from Paladins. If you want to follow the book, that's your game. My game goes my way. Which is what I have outlined above. If I were to play in your game, that is when I would have to worry about what the book says.

Not only that, I think what I talk about above touches on everything expected of the Paladin, ".. respect legitimate authority, act with honor, help those in need and punish those that harm or threaten innocents."

So while I go beyond what is "in the book", I do so after many experiences playing and DMing Paladins, and the expectations I have come to have as a result of all those experiences. So I'll go by my expectations over a book any day. Which is the attitude C&C has embodied since day one, and what led me to come to love it as a system as much as I do, warts and all.

[Relaxo]

Back @ OP, this sounds like some sweet RP and a great game!
As DM I never had to deal with fallen Paladins but I'd say you nailed it. I have DMed clerics splitting. From their dirty... weird.