Touch Spells: That round, or the next?

[Lord Dynel]

Opinion: The wizard is in reach or a foe and casts shocking grasp. Since the rules state that he can do no other action that round, must he wait until the next round to deliver his touch attack, or would you allow him to attempt to touch the foe that round? The wording on the spell does not indicate that the touch attack is part of the casting.

I'm a little torn on this, but I want to hear others' opinions. I like the multi-round approach (of "cast then touch") and in my above example, it would be much better for the wizard to cast the spell out of melee then close to deliver the spell. Then I started thinking about cure spells. They're not touch spells, per se, but they could possibly rely on hitting a moving target in melee, which isn't an easy task. Then I thought that while that may be the case, a foe will be actively avoiding the touch of an enemy wizard, I'm sure, whereas a combatant wouldn't be necessarily be avoiding the touch of his cleric friend. This tips the scales in the favor of receiving touch spells from allies, though, if they're allowed to cast and touch (without a touch attack) in the same round.

Thoughts? Should allied casters have to wait until the next round (assuming you follow the rule of casting one spell in a round and that's it) to deliver the touch spell? Should they have to roll a touch attack to hit their ally in combat with a touch spell?

[Treebore]

I read it, along with the other touch spells, as being the same round in which it is cast. IE, the casting and attacking go together.

Edit: of course the movement rules for spell casters in C&C may make it be the next round.

[Go0gleplex]

I'm in the allow the attempt the same round as well if within range and the mage didn't need to make any substantial movement.

[Lord Dynel]

I'm thinking along that route, too, guys. As long as the caster doesn't have to move, it should be okay to touch the target. Something like burning hands seems to work as part of the spell (at lest that's the impression I get from reading the text), so I think - unless stated otherwise - a touch spell can be delivered as well, if able.

[Relaxo]

I've never thought about it, always assumed it was the same round.

We can overthink, go with your gut.
That said... i might re-read it now.LOL

(so I'm no help)

But off the top of my head, i'm thinking same round.

[Desrimal]

I'm definately thinking same round as well.

[Sir Ironside]

I'm with everyone else. I think it is a huge disadvantage to the Magic User if they have to wait another round. If they are in close combat (Wetworks) they do not have the comfort of armour, to protect them if they get hit. Plus waiting a whole other round there are too many options for foes to disrupt the casting.

In any event from The Players Hand book.

Page 53: Casting Time

Most spells take one round to cast. A spell that takes one round (CT 1) to cast comes into effect during the castor's initiative turn for that round.

<snip>

Most CK's make you announce, at the beginning of the round whether you are going to cast a spell. If, so and you roll a low initiative *roll. Then you have a chance of being struck before the spell goes off.

* I am not responsible for adding this, redundant word.

[Arduin]

With this spell I allow movement to make the attack in the same round.

N.B. in my game a spell caster gets no dex bonus to AC while casting AND, if trying a touch attack, the defender gets a chance to strike caster FIRST if they are using a weapon at least as long as a short sword...

[Treebore]

Yeah, that, to me, is the big question in C&C, if you go by the book, which I don't with regards to casters moving.

By the book, casters are not allowed to move at all in the round they cast a spell.

So in my opinion, if your in a by the book game, you'd be insane to cast a touch spell, since it would require you to move up to your target the round before, and then stand right next to them the whole round on which you finally attack them on, and then have to wait until your initiative turn on the next round to get away from them. Something I absolutely would never do with any of my mage characters.

Now, a cleric, with a good AC, I'd risk it with.

[Lord Dynel]

I agree with you, Tree - it's a dangerous game the wizard's playing with regards to touch spells.

If playing by the book and I were the caster, I'd probably cast the spell first, then move towards the target. Since it's a touch "attack," I'd allow half movement. So, the caster gets into position and then releases the spell. That leaves him dangling in the wind the next round, but if the wizard wins initiative then the should be able to get away pretty easily. If he doesn't, he can "interrupt" his intended retreat for an Evade, if need be.

It is harsh, by the book, but I think that's part of the balance. I'm not saying that it was intended but I like to think it was. Spell casters wield mighty power, but sometimes must put themselves in danger to use it. I'm of the opinion, and I'm not saying any other way is wrong, that house ruling it to make it "easier" for wizards to accomplish certain things (like touch attacks) is like getting beat up by your big brother - he's supposed to win, but he's gonna remind you of it after he does it.

[Captain_K]

This thread and others like it I'm sure are in there, but I'm having trouble finding them....

Casting in combat.. I have many PC who want to play mages and such and with touch spells or casting in combat.. if you get hit in combat.. any chance to not waste the spell or always lost..

The above thread for "by the book" casting I think eviscerates casting in combat to the point of why would the creators even bother so I'd say the above chain seems to have gotten off the goal giving a "lowly" wizard with a touch spell a chance to succeed or why have the spell.

Some thoughts on a new thread...

[Arduin]

mispost

[Captain_K]

Sorry, you got me t here... what is mispost?

[Lurker]

Sorry, you got me t here... what is mispost?

''It is a female post before it gets married ...

Sorry bad joke, but it was the first thing that popped into my head ...

[Arduin]

Sorry, you got me t here... what is mispost?

''It is a female post before it gets married ...

[maximus]

I think it is suicide for a wizard, especially a low level one with little protection, to attempt a touch attack. That being said, I would rule he had to be close enough to deliver the touch when casting the spell. No movement would be possible during casting.

[Kayolan]

I'd say let him use it that round, it's risky but then again it's shocking grasp and not magic missile. I think it's the intent that you should be able to cast the spell, do your attack and then be done with it. Again, risky considering that leaves you in a potential melee situation if you don't take your enemy down or there are more of them nearby and so on.

[serleran]

Rarely does C&C allow more than one action in a round. Spellcasting is one action, attacking is another.

[mmbutter]

If you do an action, you can also move up to half your movement either before or after your action.

[Kayolan]

If you do an action, you can also move up to half your movement either before or after your action.

From what I can tell, that's true when you make an attack. But when you cast a spell you cannot move at all for that round unless the spell description says otherwise.

Really, you could just cast shocking grasp early on and keep it handy for later use, since the duration lasts until you discharge it.

Here's a question, if you cannot cast a cause light wounds spell and then do a touch attack with it on the same round, then what is the duration of the spell? Is it like a shocking grasp spell, as in it lasts until used?

If that's the case then, I'd most likely keep one "on" until it's needed. I don't see any concentration requirement for either of these two spells. Normally it says concentration somewhere in the spell description if that's required. If it did require concentration, then that would be kind of strange to have to make a check because your making a touch attack while trying to concentrate, thus necessitating a check. Thoughts?

[tylermo]

Incidentally, which spells DO allow movement?

[Arduin]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

[Kayolan]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

[Kayolan]

Incidentally, which spells DO allow movement?

Good question. Obviously some spells allow movement after they are cast. The only one off the top of my head that I can think of that allows you to move as you cast is feather fall. Perhaps other spells with a verbal component only are also possible.

[Arduin]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

I rule until discharged.

[Tadhg]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

You answered your question in your post above!!

since the duration lasts until you discharge it.

[Kayolan]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

You answered your question in your post above!!

since the duration lasts until you discharge it.

Well in that case then, shocking grasp is a nifty spell because you can cast it and hold it in reserve. The next day you will get that spell allotment back and therefore have an extra spell at standby, since that spell is already cast, it doesn't count against your daily spells, not a bad deal at all!

[alcyone]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

You answered your question in your post above!!

since the duration lasts until you discharge it.

Well in that case then, shocking grasp is a nifty spell because you can cast it and hold it in reserve. The next day you will get that spell allotment back and therefore have an extra spell at standby, since that spell is already cast, it doesn't count against your daily spells, not a bad deal at all!

As long as you don't need to pee in the morning.

[Kayolan]

Let's not forget that adventures also happen in urban environments. A wizard can look like anyone. He quietly casts shocking grasp and then he and the party walk up to the guy guarding the gate and the wizard (dressed nice) shakes hands in introduction...

I wonder, how long could a shocking grasp spell be kept ready. The rules don't say, at least to my knowledge, how long you can keep a spell cast and ready to use before it fades away, or if it ever fades.

You answered your question in your post above!!

since the duration lasts until you discharge it.

Well in that case then, shocking grasp is a nifty spell because you can cast it and hold it in reserve. The next day you will get that spell allotment back and therefore have an extra spell at standby, since that spell is already cast, it doesn't count against your daily spells, not a bad deal at all!

As long as you don't need to pee in the morning.

[Captain_K]

Shocking grasp and other touch spells I would consider have the chance to go off on the same round they are cast. Think about cure light wounds, the range is touch.. you can only cure light wounds (or its reverse) every other round? That's silly (IMHO). The reaching out and touching in the same round is simply PART of the spell. The wizard shocking grasp explains that if the first round is a miss the spell continues to be "on hold" until the wizard finally hits.. and metal armor is no protection. We had a wizard who had his quarter staff copper coated - wound with "decorative" copper wires - just for this spell. He would reach it out between the fighters to zap the bad guys... this is what happens when the DM does not start the PC with magic missile. As also noted it can go down their sword, a clear reference to mage/fighter use of the spell to enhance their sword swings... now a sword attack coupled with the spell... now that's starting to make me rethink, two attacks are not allowed in one round (not until 10th lvl fighter), but a spell with touch is OK, I can live with that and NO Monks don't get to skirt the rule either... but I do feel touch spells are intended to occur in the round they are cast other wise clerical cure casting rates just got cut in half.