Illusions- which way is it???

[nightstorm]

Players Handbook pg49
"Illusionists on the other hand, alter one's perception of form and reality".

pg 50
"A Illusionist convinces a spell recipient that what they sense is real by altering and and giving comprehensive form to magic"

page 74
"If the creature makes the saving throw the spell fails as the creature realizes that the spell is an illusion.


Castle Keeper's Guide pg44
"An illusionists magic does not require belief"

So why the intelligence saving throws? Looking through them at least half seem to require them. Even ones that do "real" damage and is on the wizard's list also require intelligence saves.

[kreider204]

Ya, I hate that. I houserule Illusionist spells so they are just as real as any other spell, no extra checks or saves required.

[Fizz]

I think of illusions like special effects in a movie. If you didn't know about them, it can look completely convincing. But if the caster isn't careful, he may make a mistake or have an inconsistency that give it away as false. (Like a scene from The Two Towers that i can't NOT notice anymore... gah!).

-Fizz

[Lord Dynel]

As much as I love the Trolls, I've disregarded a lot of their concepts on illusions. I really like the 2nd edition AD&D interpretation of illusions, presented on page 83-84 of the Player's Handbook. Even if you want to adjudicate them a different way, I suggest giving it a read.

To me, the illusion's real, at least initially. If interacted with, I allow a saving throw...which I roll secretly. By interacted with, I mean studied or dwelt upon for an amount of time or attempted interaction. Example: the PCs encounter an illusion of a pit and they respond by simply announcing that they're walking around it. The pit's "real" and the heroes continue on. If they decide they want to investigate the pit, jump into it, or otherwise interact with it, I would roll saves. Those who fail still believe and perceive it as whatever it is (a pit, in this example). Those who make their save know it's an illusion. They can still "see" the illusion, but they know it's not real.

[alcyone]

I think it should just be "Illusions require intelligence saves." with no further game world justification given, and the CK can spin his or her own pseudo-scientific metaphysical extraplanar BS and hope for the best.

[nightstorm]

I've decided I hate the Illusion idea and I'm making them mages that deal with "otherworldly" power ie from the planes of shadow, time, fey. I think a save is only in need if it affects the mind outright (like charm which no matter the class would require a throw) or area affects for half damage. This came about while I was playing a sorcerer with illusionist powers and I used the chaos spell which not only required a save, but TWO saves. Talk about the short end of the stick.

[mgtremaine]

I've decided I hate the Illusion idea and I'm making them mages that deal with "otherworldly" power ie from the planes of shadow, time, fey. I think a save is only in need if it affects the mind outright (like charm which no matter the class would require a throw) or area affects for half damage.

I agree with this.... I treat the class as the New Psionicist or Sorcerer with it's diverse powers. No save on the healing either.... YMMV

-Mike

[Arduin]

I think it should just be "Illusions require intelligence saves." with no further game world justification given, and the CK can spin his or her own pseudo-scientific metaphysical extraplanar BS and hope for the best.

Yes. people needlessly over complicate this. It's a "spell save" using Int. (CK to provide description as to what the game world looks like to the PC's.)

[zombiehands]

In the past gave viewers 2 saves when facing a XXXX Image spell. So when people see a catoblepas created by the spell they get a disblief roll and if it stares at them to kill them they also get a saving throw. But now I think I am going to make the illusionist make an INT check with a difficulty of the highest level character viewing it. This would be a believabilty roll. If he makes it then people still get a save verse the catoblepas' death gaze.

Other spells that don't take alot of creativity on the casters side like specific creations spells such as illusionary Lions or Wolves should get no saves. Overall they are fairly weak.