High level playtest experience

[irda ranger]

Hey folks, a quick question for those in the audience with high level playtest experience:

Do fights drag out?

Looking at the numbers, I see ballooning HP, but little corresponding increase in damage-doing. Back-of-the-napkin calculations show that toe-to-toe fights against NPC's of equal HP would expand from an average of 3-5 rounds in low levels up to 15(!) rounds at high levels. What a dragged out process; I'd almost rather win by decision.

Is this how it works in practice, or am I missing something?

I'm thinking about introducing Wound Points (from Star Wars) to keep things interesting at higher levels. Anyone's thoughts on this would be appreciated.
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[Nifelhein]

Youa re using the standard rules for hp, right? Dicee up to 9 and fixed after that, add con bonuses at all levels. I think the issue comes out mostly because there aren't major improvements in damage capacity, but this used to happen on AD&D 2nd edition as well.

How about time spent on combat, how long are combats taking in comparison to lower levels?
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[Jynx]

I ran a one night 20th level special game with 8 players! It wasn't too bad and the fights DO NOT drag as in 3.5 .... well except that the spells took more time to resolve due to us being inexperienced with most of them. The amount of damage you do at higher levels, seems to offset the HP and the higher BTHs offset better ACs... etc... . So all in all, I would say it's about the same except you are fighting bigger baddies and such. I do think that some limits need to be put on spells such as Fireball. One Mage can obliterate most enemies in 1/5th the time a fighter of equal level can.

[irda ranger]

Jynx wrote:
The amount of damage you do at higher levels, seems to offset the HP

Ah, but this is my very point: where's the extra damage coming from? Longswords still do 1d8+Str, yes? I know how Wizard's spells go up in damage, but swords don't. What am I missing?
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[Treebore]

I'm only at the 9th/10th level of play right now with my group. I find them running out of HP's faster. Of course they are fighting Frost Giants with 4d6 axes and +6 STR bonuses to hit and damage right now (Jarl of the Frost Giants in the Against the Giants series).

Rather than give them magic items enhancing stats, with a couple of Librams and Manuals as exceptions, they have 18 to 20 STR for the fighter types, and my son increased his 18 DEX to a 20 with his draw from the Deck of Many things last weekend (He could have taken his STR to 22).

So it appears to me that dealing damage cna stay on par with the increase in HP's, and exceed it with "house Rules" allowing improvement of stats to to exercise or study during down times, finding stat increasing magic, and +'ed weapons, the highest of which is +4 Lance for my other son's Knight Character. Oh, and the Thief has a +5 Long Sword that she has rarely been using lately, because the INT Giant Slayer Long Sword has been her preferred weapon lately. (double all damage versus giants 2E version).

So I have to agree at this point that dealing Damage will keep up with the HP's gained, if not actually exceed it.

[gideon_thorne]

irda ranger wrote:
Ah, but this is my very point: where's the extra damage coming from? Longswords still do 1d8+Str, yes? I know how Wizard's spells go up in damage, but swords don't. What am I missing?

One way is due to the fact that characters simply hit more often via level advancement. Simple averages pushes the damage up a bit.
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[Jynx]

I found that spell casters were the real big hitters, but still had the weekest ACs & HPs. They can attack but have to be very carefull when they decide to withdraw or how much they risk getting mixed into the action. Spell casters should spend half their time attacking and the other half boosting the others or helping them out in some way... which is what our cleric did most times. A simple thing as casting fly or feather fall can either help a fighter attack or save his life. Also, the fighters did have multiple attacks and they hit more easily with better BtHs. At level 20 they all were given allowances to carry things like holy avengers and other powerfull items that you normally would not give lower level characters. It was characters with low number of attacks and lowe BtH that seemed to suffer the most. The rogue for example... medium HPs, low BtH, not enough attacks. Luckily the player with that character was inventive enough to have the character sneak around in the shadows and such to perform their sneak attacks. As CK, I was also very liberal in adjudicating their abilities as sneaky types that can easily avoid attacks and run away from fire breath... etc... .

All in all, it works.

In 3.5, the plethora of rules involved in combat, and add to that the miniature rules, and it becomes one hell of a freekin mess!

If you get a chance, then just try it for one night. I did with a dungeon adventure and it worked. Except I did house rule that from now on no spell can cause more than 10 D?s of damage. 20 D6 for a fireball was just purelyu insane!

[serleran]

At high levels, the spellcasters get to show off. Combats are over quickly when there are spellcasters, on both sides. In straight melee, though, it truly depends on what the ACs are, and whatnot... though monsters should be able to drop a PC (unless its a high HD or high AC type) every three - five rounds, not mentioning hurting others. Numbers are also a key factor, and by that, I mean... the amount of foes to overcome. 6 PC vs. 1 BBEG is going to be over very fast, or, depending on all the factors, a protracted battle. However, 30 monsters vs. 6 PCs = death. And no, it won't matter what the monsters are...

[Nelzie]

serleran wrote:
At high levels, the spellcasters get to show off. Combats are over quickly when there are spellcasters, on both sides. In straight melee, though, it truly depends on what the ACs are, and whatnot... though monsters should be able to drop a PC (unless its a high HD or high AC type) every three - five rounds, not mentioning hurting others. Numbers are also a key factor, and by that, I mean... the amount of foes to overcome. 6 PC vs. 1 BBEG is going to be over very fast, or, depending on all the factors, a protracted battle. However, 30 monsters vs. 6 PCs = death. And no, it won't matter what the monsters are...

Rats. A whole mess of rats. (Well more than 30 of them)

They were between the PCs and the group of wererats that had a handful of bitten/infected humans caged up waiting out the transformation.

The PCs whipped out bows and sent the cleric a little ahead. The distance was such that the PCs would have needed to run through the rats for about 1 to 2 rounds, to meet the wererats for melee. The cleric cast "Soundburst" and rolled enough damage to make an exploding ring of bloody rat corpses that was reminiscent of the halo explosion from the digitall remasterd Star Wars movie, only this was horizontal and composed of rat guts, blood and bits. (There ended up being enough time to cast this spell over a few rounds before facing almost no rats and just the wererats.)

Magic is such an amazing "equalizer" at times.

Just sayin'...
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[BASH MAN]

You need to assume magic items.

A party of 16th level characters without a sword of sharpness or something like it is a crippled party of 16th level characters-- at least the warriors are crippled without one. They can nick things to death, but as you say, the wizards could just use magic to kill it fast.

If nobody has a weapon with a chance of auto-killing, the next best thing is a weapon that adds to damage, like the flaming sword that does an extra 1d6 dmg. When I ran Palace of Shadows, almost every fighting pregen character had a flaming weapon.

However, what I really recomend is using Weapon Mastery rules from the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It made it so that people could parry attacks, and that weapons did more damage when used by higher level characters.

I would modify it though, so that you only get a +1 to hit per mastery rank, isntead of +2 since the BtH chart moves faster in C&C than D&D (at least it does for warrior types).

Essentially, there are 6 levels of mastery: Unskilled, Basic, Skilled, Expert, Master, and Grand-Master. The chart below does not exactly correspond with the old D&D version, but is actually simpler, and makes more sense for C&C:

A weapon you are not proficient in counts as unskilled. You have -2 to hit and do half damage with an unskilled weapon (thus, a wizard could pick up a greatsword and swing it-- he just does half damage, and -2 to hit. Still better than punching someone!)

Basic skill is the "normal" to hit and damage.

Skilled: +1 to hit, and damage dice increases by 1 step (d2, d3, d4, d6, d8/2d4, d10, d12/2d6, 2d8, 3d6, 3d8, 3d10). So a person who is skilled in dagger would do 1d6 dmg, longsword 1d10 dmg, and skilled in greatsword would do 2d8 dmg.

Expert: +2 to hit, dmg dice increases by 1 step. So an expert in dagger does 1d8 dmg, longsword 1d12, and greatsword 3d6.

Master: +3 to hit, another dmg step increase. Master in dagger does d10, longsword 2d8, and greatsword 3d8.

Grand Master: +4 to hit, another dmg step increase. Grand Master of dagger does 2d6, longsword 3d6, and greatsword 3d10.

Training: in order to learn a weapon mastery, you must learn from somebody 1 rank higher than you. It takes a month of training. To become a Grandmaster, you must train with a Grandmaster, but it takes 3 months of training time.

When can you gain a mastery level? You can only become Basic Skilled in a new weapon (i.e. learn a weapon not on your class list) once you have a +1 BtH. You can only become skilled once you have a +3 BtH. You can only become Expert once you have a +6 BtH. You can only become Master when you have +9 BtH, you can only become Grand Master when you have +12 BtH.

I would do it the following way:

Fighters, Paladins, Knights, Rangers, and Barbarians gain 1 "slot" every level, but cannot begin using them until their BtH reaches +3 to become skilled. Example: At level 2 a fighter is basic skill in all weapons. At level 3 he is skilled in 1 weapon. At level 4 he can be skilled in 2 weapons, at level 5 he can be skilled in 3 weapons, at level 6, he becomes expert in one weapon, and remains skilled in the other 2. At 7, he can become expert in 2 weapons, etc. Note- fighters have an advantage here because their BtH is 1 higher than rangers, knights, etc.

Rogues, Assassins, Clerics, Druids, Monks, and Bards gain 1 slot every 2 levels. They can begin using them once their BtH reaches +1 in order to become basic skilled in a previosly unskilled weapon, and when it reaches +3 they can use them to become skilled. Note: Monk's unarmed damage cannot be improved with weapon mastery-- it is assumed that it is part of their monk training (which is why the dmg increases as it does already)

Wizards and Illusionists gain 1 slot every 3 levels. Note, that a wizard then must be 3rd level to become basic skilled in a longsword, and cannot become skilled in a weapon until 12th level!

Something else you might consider is allowing characters to use the "power attack" feat, even though it does not actually exist in C&C. That could increase damage dealt a lot as well.
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[Nagisawa Takumi]

BASH MAN wrote:
You need to assume magic items.

A party of 16th level characters without a sword of sharpness or something like it is a crippled party of 16th level characters-- at least the warriors are crippled without one. They can nick things to death, but as you say, the wizards could just use magic to kill it fast.

If nobody has a weapon with a chance of auto-killing, the next best thing is a weapon that adds to damage, like the flaming sword that does an extra 1d6 dmg. When I ran Palace of Shadows, almost every fighting pregen character had a flaming weapon.

However, what I really recomend is using Weapon Mastery rules from the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. It made it so that people could parry attacks, and that weapons did more damage when used by higher level characters.

I would modify it though, so that you only get a +1 to hit per mastery rank, isntead of +2 since the BtH chart moves faster in C&C than D&D (at least it does for warrior types).

Essentially, there are 6 levels of mastery: Unskilled, Basic, Skilled, Expert, Master, and Grand-Master. The chart below does not exactly correspond with the old D&D version, but is actually simpler, and makes more sense for C&C:

A weapon you are not proficient in counts as unskilled. You have -2 to hit and do half damage with an unskilled weapon (thus, a wizard could pick up a greatsword and swing it-- he just does half damage, and -2 to hit. Still better than punching someone!)

Basic skill is the "normal" to hit and damage.

Skilled: +1 to hit, and damage dice increases by 1 step (d2, d3, d4, d6, d8/2d4, d10, d12/2d6, 2d8, 3d6, 3d8, 3d10). So a person who is skilled in dagger would do 1d6 dmg, longsword 1d10 dmg, and skilled in greatsword would do 2d8 dmg.

Expert: +2 to hit, dmg dice increases by 1 step. So an expert in dagger does 1d8 dmg, longsword 1d12, and greatsword 3d6.

Master: +3 to hit, another dmg step increase. Master in dagger does d10, longsword 2d8, and greatsword 3d8.

Grand Master: +4 to hit, another dmg step increase. Grand Master of dagger does 2d6, longsword 3d6, and greatsword 3d10.

Training: in order to learn a weapon mastery, you must learn from somebody 1 rank higher than you. It takes a month of training. To become a Grandmaster, you must train with a Grandmaster, but it takes 3 months of training time.

When can you gain a mastery level? You can only become Basic Skilled in a new weapon (i.e. learn a weapon not on your class list) once you have a +1 BtH. You can only become skilled once you have a +3 BtH. You can only become Expert once you have a +6 BtH. You can only become Master when you have +9 BtH, you can only become Grand Master when you have +12 BtH.

I would do it the following way:

Fighters, Paladins, Knights, Rangers, and Barbarians gain 1 "slot" every level, but cannot begin using them until their BtH reaches +3 to become skilled. Example: At level 2 a fighter is basic skill in all weapons. At level 3 he is skilled in 1 weapon. At level 4 he can be skilled in 2 weapons, at level 5 he can be skilled in 3 weapons, at level 6, he becomes expert in one weapon, and remains skilled in the other 2. At 7, he can become expert in 2 weapons, etc. Note- fighters have an advantage here because their BtH is 1 higher than rangers, knights, etc.

Rogues, Assassins, Clerics, Druids, Monks, and Bards gain 1 slot every 2 levels. They can begin using them once their BtH reaches +1 in order to become basic skilled in a previosly unskilled weapon, and when it reaches +3 they can use them to become skilled. Note: Monk's unarmed damage cannot be improved with weapon mastery-- it is assumed that it is part of their monk training (which is why the dmg increases as it does already)

Wizards and Illusionists gain 1 slot every 3 levels. Note, that a wizard then must be 3rd level to become basic skilled in a longsword, and cannot become skilled in a weapon until 12th level!

Something else you might consider is allowing characters to use the "power attack" feat, even though it does not actually exist in C&C. That could increase damage dealt a lot as well.

New poster but I like this...

[moriarty777]

Good points... all good points. Personally I like the idea that a wizard can so easily kill himself with a misplaced fireball! The environment can itself be a limiting factor for the 'uber-mage'.

Put a good +5 Longsword (with extra bonus ability) in the hands of a capable high level fighter who won't be likely to miss the first (let alone the second) attack and you've got some decent 'smackage'

Don't forget that you also get a saving throw vs many high damaging spells which half the potential damage!

All in all... it does work out in previous AD&D campaigns I've ran... and I'm sure it will work out quite well with C&C.

Moriarty the Red
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[Jason Vey]

Treebore wrote:
So it appears to me that dealing damage cna stay on par with the increase in HP's, and exceed it with "house Rules" allowing improvement of stats to to exercise or study during down times, finding stat increasing magic, and +'ed weapons, the highest of which is +4 Lance for my other son's Knight Character. Oh, and the Thief has a +5 Long Sword that she has rarely been using lately, because the INT Giant Slayer Long Sword has been her preferred weapon lately. (double all damage versus giants 2E version).

So I have to agree at this point that dealing Damage will keep up with the HP's gained, if not actually exceed it.

One easy houserule fix that would allow fighters to keep up with spellslingers is to allow primary fighter types (Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Knights) to add 1/2 their level as a damage bonus in combat.

[irda ranger]

The Grey Elf wrote:
One easy houserule fix that would allow fighters to keep up with spellslingers is to allow primary fighter types (Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Knights) to add 1/2 their level as a damage bonus in combat.

For critical hits (determined using D&D 3e rules) I allow a Dmg bonus equal to BtH (BtH x2 for weapons which are 20/x3 under D&D). That can be a lot of damage, but confirming a crit doesn't happen often.

I also like BASH MAN's system. A lot. I will probably use it to avoid the magic-sword-dependency described above. I expect my high-level (N)PC's to be deadly oppoenents even with a half-rusted blade.
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[phadeout]

I guess an argument could be:

If a world has Magic Users and Magic, a normal guy wielding normal weapons has no chance to equal someone with powerful magic. But since the world does have Magic, that normal guy will be above the norm (as per someone that can wield magic) IF you put them in a Magical Suit of Armor and give them a Magic Sword.

Otherwise, if Magic Items themselves are uber-rare, the Magic Users have the biggest advantage by far! So you would have to devise a system to help out the fact that normal folks don't have access to magic themselves.

I think a world with Magic Users is intended to have Magic Items for those that do not have the ability to cast magic. Otherwise, you have to scale magic itself back to make up for the fact, or scale everyone else up. Else, the world will be very imbalanced.

[irda ranger]

phadeout wrote:
I guess an argument could be:

If a world has Magic Users and Magic, a normal guy wielding normal weapons has no chance to equal someone with powerful magic. But since the world does have Magic, that normal guy will be above the norm (as per someone that can wield magic) IF you put them in a Magical Suit of Armor and give them a Magic Sword.

Otherwise, if Magic Items themselves are uber-rare, the Magic Users have the biggest advantage by far! So you would have to devise a system to help out the fact that normal folks don't have access to magic themselves.

I think a world with Magic Users is intended to have Magic Items for those that do not have the ability to cast magic. Otherwise, you have to scale magic itself back to make up for the fact, or scale everyone else up. Else, the world will be very imbalanced.

Which is exactly what we're discussing here. BASH MAN's system is a way to scale the fighting classes up so that they can be fun to play, and not just lackeys to wizards. If the DM and players are fine having fighting-type PC's be dependent on their magical "stuff" for relevancy, great for them. I'm not, which is why I think I will adopt BASH MAN's system or something like it.
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[JediOre]

For me, I'm thinking about adding the multiple attacks per round that AD&D had. For me, it's easier to keep track.

[yell0w_lantern]

I must admit I do like Bashman's system.

I know that the Magic User Problem has been addressed in different ways over the years - Iron Heroes RPG was based around beefing up fighter classes.

Another old approach is to make magic use more dangerous. Different systems have tried this in different ways - everything from corruption points to Constitution costs based on spell level to skill based spellcasting with heinous magical mishap tables. I'm working on something that incorporates the last 2, in fact - also an interesting way to handle specialists of all kinds.

[irda ranger]

yell0w_lantern wrote:
I must admit I do like Bashman's system.

I know that the Magic User Problem has been addressed in different ways over the years - Iron Heroes RPG was based around beefing up fighter classes.

Another old approach is to make magic use more dangerous. Different systems have tried this in different ways - everything from corruption points to Constitution costs based on spell level to skill based spellcasting with heinous magical mishap tables. I'm working on something that incorporates the last 2, in fact - also an interesting way to handle specialists of all kinds.

Hmmm. Never a big fan of punishing people for using their class abilities. It would be like introducing a muscle-strain mechanic into the Fighter class. Roll a 20, critical hit; roll a 1, pull your groin.
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[Nagisawa Takumi]

irda ranger wrote:
Hmmm. Never a big fan of punishing people for using their class abilities. It would be like introducing a muscle-strain mechanic into the Fighter class. Roll a 20, critical hit; roll a 1, pull your groin.

Here's the rub, however. In a lot of novels and some gameworlds, magic is supposed to be nasty, evil or just outright alien stuff that man isn't built to handle. Often all it wants to do is 'EAT YOUR HEAD'. Mundane weaponry on the other hand is often quite manageable in the right hands, like fighter types.

Magic is like a firehose spewing water, one man has to wrestle with it if there's too much water coming, and if he's not careful he could hurt himself.

[irda ranger]

Nagisawa Takumi wrote:
Here's the rub, however. In a lot of novels and some gameworlds, magic is supposed to be nasty, evil or just outright alien stuff that man isn't built to handle. Often all it wants to do is 'EAT YOUR HEAD'. Mundane weaponry on the other hand is often quite manageable in the right hands, like fighter types.

Magic is like a firehose spewing water, one man has to wrestle with it if there's too much water coming, and if he's not careful he could hurt himself.

"EAT YOUR HEAD" -- yeah, that's called "Call of Cthulu." I don't play that one.

"Firehose spewing water" -- kind of like "Wheel of Time", but even those rules allowed for the difference between "doing what's safe" and "over-channeling." IIRC, as long as you stayed within certain parameters you didn't risk a mishap.

Generally I just don't like mishaps. Blowing an attack roll while an Ogre is trying to "EAT YOUR HEAD" is enough mishap for me. It's probably more realistic to say you can fail to achieve a result through pure incompetetence, but that doesn't make for the heroic feel I'm aiming for in a game.

Now, the exception to all that stuff I just said would be an interesting "Unified Fatigue Mechanic", where PC's might get slowly exausted from any number of things, whether spellcasting or fighting, but unless it's something that applies to all classes more or less equally (like Hit Points and the need for sleep), I'm not interested.
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[Nagisawa Takumi]

Actually, I was thinking more of the line of Conan magic and wizards.

But to each their own.

[yell0w_lantern]

I'm sorry that the possibility mishaps make you so upset. Fortunately, mishaps are not a requirement. I was simply pointing out that the alternative to powering up the fighting classes would be to tone down the magic users - and that there have been numerous ways over the years. The reason I like spell mishaps is because I find it odd that magic is always perfectly reliable but a thief can die from unsuccessfully picking a lock. But then, the game is fantasy anyway so it doesn't have to make sense.

[irda ranger]

yell0w_lantern wrote:
I'm sorry that the possibility mishaps make you so upset. Fortunately, mishaps are not a requirement. I was simply pointing out that the alternative to powering up the fighting classes would be to tone down the magic users - and that there have been numerous ways over the years. The reason I like spell mishaps is because I find it odd that magic is always perfectly reliable but a thief can die from unsuccessfully picking a lock. But then, the game is fantasy anyway so it doesn't have to make sense.

I'm hardly upset; it's just a matter of taste in games. Where you might prefer bringing a Magic-User "down" to the Fighter's level, I prefer to lift the Fighter "up" to the Magic-User's level. The players who are playing Fighters get a treat, and the player's playing magic-users don't suffer any harm.

However, there's no rule in any game I've played (other than Paranoia, I think) where botching an Open Locks check results in character death. I mean, what did he do, accidently shove the lock pick into his carotid artery?
I'm kidding. I know you mean that if he is trying to pick a lock which is trapped with some kind of Super Deadly Poison Needle(TM) he could accidently set it off. However, that's an "in game" reason for death, not unlike a Magic-User dying because said Magic-User failed to subdue the monster (who successfully made its Save v. Spell) intent of crushing his head. In both cases a PC is trying to overcome an in-game danger, a roll is made, and life or death results. If your concern is with the Knock spell specifically, I would house-rule it to say it can unlock locks, but not disarm Super Deadly Poison Needles(TM). Thieves have got to earn a living somehow, right?
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[Nelzie]

irda ranger wrote:
For critical hits (determined using D&D 3e rules) I allow a Dmg bonus equal to BtH (BtH x2 for weapons which are 20/x3 under D&D). That can be a lot of damage, but confirming a crit doesn't happen often.

I also like BASH MAN's system. A lot. I will probably use it to avoid the magic-sword-dependency described above. I expect my high-level (N)PC's to be deadly oppoenents even with a half-rusted blade.

I am working up ideas about a similar system that ties into the "Heroicly Imbued" items that I am working out with the players in my campaign.

So far, everyone's primary weapon has become "Imbued" through their heroics and tales of their heroics.

One player has had a regular string of luck with hitting critical hits with his bow and then rolling high enough to one-hit kill most of the opposition the party has faced. His bow, when used by him, has now been imbued with an "Automatic neck/head Shot" on a roll of 19-20, giving an automatic double damage, alongside the heroicly imbued +1 to hit/damage that his bow offers, when in his hand.

Another player's sword was seen as magical by a group of bandits. The character has spent time etching his blade while telling tales of his heroics with the weapon, which was his father's sword. In his hand, the weapon acts as a +1 to hit/damage magical weapon. However, it was knocked from his hand by one of the aforementioned bandits and when the bandit attempted to wield the weapon, he had a number of terrible rolls and a critical failure. The sword has since been seen to be cursed within the hands of anyone, other than this Swashbuckler and is now heroicly imbued as such. It gives a -3 to hit/damage to anyone who isn't the character who owns the blade.

The party's cleric has been using her shield and warhammer as the somatic component for the Soundburst spell and in time, this is going to translate into a form of "scaled" Soundburst that will remain useful for even very powerful enemies many seasons into the character's future.

These Heroic Imbuements will eventually translate to a scaled damage that will bring fighting types into line with Arcane/Divine Casters and may or may not involve "special damage" akin to elemental kinds of damage, depending upon where the story goes and how things develop.
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[Treebore]

Lets see, D20's "Book of 9 Swords" (Tome of Battle) has some serious fighter power ups. Kind of makes them "magical" fighters. Ie they can tap into supernatural powers kind of stuff.

Plus I think they put out something called "Weapons of Legacy" that has weapons power up as you gain levels and I think sacrifice XP's. Haven't bought it, so I can't say for sure. Just know what I saw in the "Expedition to Ravenloft" book that I bought.

Anyways, with seriously stripped down mechanics, etc... these books can probably help you accomplish what you want.