StarSIEGE?!?!

[dcs]

Rhuvein wrote:
Nice. I like yer idea. I thought immediately of GammaSEIGE, but alas that might cause some issues ~ GammaWorld.

I doubt it would cause problems (though you never know), but the game's name should be distinctive, yes?
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[Traveller]

NovaSIEGE.

As any astronomy buff or science-fiction buff knows, novae are new stars formed from coalescing gas and dust. The Latin root of nova is novus, which is translated into English as shown below.

novus novel, unusual, extraordinary /news, novelty

alt.

novus new, fresh, young, inexperienced, revived

So, why NovaSIEGE? Well think about it in obvious terms. Nova says "hi there, this is outer space calling", and at the same time says "I'm new to the world." If waxing poetic, it could be said that this is a fresh look at science fiction or something else equally eloquent.

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to use StarSIEGE, due to marketplace confusion. People might think this is a RPG based on the computer game, etc. So, keep NovaSIEGE. Sounds good to me.
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[Emryys]

All right... NovaSeige is gaining steam 8)

Do I get my picture on the cover...
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[Tadhg]

dcs wrote:
I doubt it would cause problems (though you never know), but the game's name should be distinctive, yes?

Yep, it should.

OK, I do like NovaSEIGE, but I'll just throw out one more - GalaxySEIGE 'cause Iike the word!
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[Tadhg]

Emryys wrote:
All right... NovaSeige is gaining steam 8)

Do I get my picture on the cover...

Hehe, naw you got to have that nova forming as mentioned by Traveller on the cover. You can be on the back cover/box in the lower right corner!
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[cheeplives]

Okay, I think I've come up with a Formula that can be used to build Items (equipment, cybernetics, vehicles, etc).

Can some people build some things and let me know how it works?

The Formula uses the item's SIZE, VALUE, and RELIABILITY to determine the FUNCTION Bonus the item has available to it. The Function bonus is then split up amongst all of the Skill Bundles that the item affects. To determine the Bonus, simply sum the SIZE and VALUE and halve it (round down). Then add the RELIABILITY of the item. This means that less Reliable things are more "useful" since they will run out of ammo more often or such. The bonus can be spent on the following things:

+1 Bonus to Skill Bundle = 1 bonus point

+2 Bonus to Specialty = 1 bonus point

Each Range class above Close = 1 bonus point

+1 Durability (base 3 for free) = 1 bonus point

"Special Effect" = 2 bonus points

Interference score = -1 bonus point per Interference point

-1 Penalty to skill = -1 bonus point

Special Effect Examples: "Extra Damage (+1 Wound Box)", "Autofire (Can split Combat Expertise bonus into separate attacks)"

For example: A handgun will affect the Combat Expertise Skill Bundle. It has a Size of 5 and a Value of 4 as well as a Reliability of 2. This means that the total Function bonus for the handgun is Size 5 + Value 4 = 9 / 2 = 4.5, which rounds to 4 plus the Reliability of 2, gives it a +6 Bonus. So this could be a Combat Expertise +5 Short Ranged weapon or could instead be a Combat Expertise +3, Short Ranged weapon that does +1 Wound, depending on how you want it modeled (i.e. normal pistol versus hand-cannon).

Some Examples:

Handgun (9mm): D(3), S(5), V(4), R(2), Combat Expertise +5 Short

Handgun (.50 cal): D(3), S(5), V(4), R(2), Combat Expertise +3 Short, Extra Damage

SMG: D(3), S(5), V(4), R(2), Combat Expertise +3 Short, "Autofire"

Hunting Rifle: D(3), S(6), V(4), R(2), Combat Expertise +4 Long

Cybernetic Arm: D(6), S(6), V(10), R(0), Athletics +5, Combat Expertise +2 Close, Defense Specialty +2, Interference 3

Notes

D = Durability (how many hits the item can take before it is damaged)

S = Size (Size where Size 10 is equal to an average human. Size is exponential or 9 is 1/2 the size of a human and 11 is twice the size of a human)

V = Value (Value where Value 10 is equal to a Middle Class income [approx 75k]. Value is exponential like Size)

R = Reliability (a natural roll equal to or less than this on a d20 results in the item not functioning, requiring recharing, reloading, maintenance, etc.)

Interference is for Cybernetics

What do you think?

[moriarty777]

I like the fact that it seems to break down into a formula easily enough... I've glanced through the original PDF StarSIEGE document which seems nice enough but not enough to comment much more. Just not enough time recently.

Have anybody been playing much with this yet?

Moriarty the Red
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[magehammer]

I vote for GalaxySIEGE!!!

That is great.

And because I am a pain in the butt, when is Ruins and Radiation going to be put into production, and will it use C&C or will it use GalaxySIEGE?
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[finarvyn]

1. Maybe the answer is to maintain product identity and just go with C&C Space or something. (If not, I like GalaxySIEGE better than NoveSIEGE.)

2. My vote in this sort of game is always to make the game as universal as possible. Strange races make neat reading, but I rarely ever use them. C&C is a game without a setting (at least, the core rule books are like this) and the only races detailed are ones very common to traditional fantasy settings. I know that this is tougher since many SciFi settings are so different from one another, but I think that universal aliens, equipment, starships, and so on are more useful than neat but specialized ones.

Just my two cents on the issue.

[finarvyn]

What I want in my Star SIEGE is a game book that will allow me to run almost any SciFi campaign I like, the way I can use C&C to run a bunch of settings from Tolkien to Conan to generic fantasy. I would be most interested in running something along the lines of Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, or Dune. (WIth perhaps a bit of Firefly thrown in.) What I want in my Star SIEGE, therefore, would be some generic aliens and robots, standard starships, future weapons, and psionics.

cheeplives wrote:
Okay... anyone who has read/played the StarSIEGE rules, please send me your comments ASAP!! Or you can post stuff here and I'll look at it, I guess...

I dont know which version of Star SIEGE I have playtested (are there multiple versions?) but I thought I would give some general comments on what I have seen so far. I like the effort put into Star SIEGE, but find myself constantly house rule-ing parts of the game to make it more like C&C in Space.

1. The aliens are pretty well done overall, but I would be more interested in alien-generation tables than pre-created aliens.

2. Any reason why the attributes cant be the same as in C&C? Also, why are they generated by 1d20 rather than 3d6?

3. Skill bundles are okay, but I would still rather see something more like the class system in C&C. 3E managed to keep classes in future settings and I dont see why Star SIEGE cant do this as well.

4. The write-up for Channeling (psionics) are good, but it might be worth looking at the fatigue system used in Blue Rose (based on True20, I believe) as a model. I like the powers lists and write-ups; they are quite comprehensive.

5. The weapons lists are pretty complete as well. Pretty much anything I wanted was similar to something in the lists.

6. The Cybernetics examples are quite good.

7. The Starship system section seems kind of dry and technical, what with all of the letter designations and so on. I think its hard to create a useful starship combat simulator in just a few pages and perhaps a simplification would be more useful, as well as some general templates sort of like in Star Fleet Battles. Boxes could be checked off as various hit location charts are consulted.

8. The section on the SIEGE Engine is good, but as I read the part about C&C I couldnt help but wonder why Star SIEGE wasnt more compatible with C&C.

Just my opinions. Hope this helps!

[cheeplives]

Thanks for the input.. here's my responses to some of your issues:

Quote:
1. The aliens are pretty well done overall, but I would be more interested in alien-generation tables than pre-created aliens.

The aliens presented were the aliens that the C&C Society first suggested when Davis announced this project two years ago. I just took them and expanded them a bit. I've added some boxed text on homebrewing aliens, but I haven't got any set rules, since I look at Race creation as an art rather than a science. If you have suggestions as to how you'd like an alien generation system to work, I'll gladly listen to suggestions.

Quote:
2. Any reason why the attributes cant be the same as in C&C? Also, why are they generated by 1d20 rather than 3d6?

Look at the rest of the document. I wrote Star SIEGE to completely use the SIEGE Engine and only the SIEGE Engine. I removed variable damage dice and all other dice other than the d20. As such, it seemed silly to keep 3d6 to generate attributes when everything else was d20 based.

As far as the different attributes. I felt the six I put in do a better job of modeling most Sci-fi heroes than the C&C six. I like the two Physical, two Mental, and two Emotional split rather than the C&C three Physical, one and a half Mental, and one and a half Emotional. There is nothing in the game that is realy hard-coded into the attributes that can't be modified. I'll add some box text describing how to use the C&C six if you want, though.

I have added rules for point-buy attributes as well, to cover all my bases, so I have no problem putting a nod in to the C&C attributes.

Quote:
3. Skill bundles are okay, but I would still rather see something more like the class system in C&C. 3E managed to keep classes in future settings and I dont see why Star SIEGE cant do this as well.

Why reinvent the wheel? C&C does Class-based so well, why should I repeat what has been done? Besides, when we get the CKG, Davis will give us the Class-generation system, so you can make whatever classes you want. I created this because the original call for this game was to showcase how adaptable the SIEGE Engine was... and by making the game skill based, I'm showing the adaptability of the system.

The Professions system is the nod to class-based games, but I felt, and it was mirrored by much of the C&C society when we first discussed this project, that a classless version of SIEGE was a more useful toolkit to present.

Quote:
4. The write-up for Channeling (psionics) are good, but it might be worth looking at the fatigue system used in Blue Rose (based on True20, I believe) as a model. I like the powers lists and write-ups; they are quite comprehensive.

I have acutally re-designed part of the Channeling section. I have added a new Wound Track that tracks Stress. Channeling and overchanneling can cause Stress damage to the character. Plus, the Stress system now introduces a "Sanity"-like mechanic for people who want to play more psychological type games (like Event Horizon). Win-win if you ask me. I kept the powers untouched, though... but I did standardize things so you don't have to track backlash so much. I also added a Psionic Defense stat to simplify Resistance.

Quote:
5. The weapons lists are pretty complete as well. Pretty much anything I wanted was similar to something in the lists.

6. The Cybernetics examples are quite good.

Thanks! See my post above about my new Item creation system... let me know what you think of it... I think it will work well (And does a great job of already mimicking what I had presented before).

Quote:
7. The Starship system section seems kind of dry and technical, what with all of the letter designations and so on. I think its hard to create a useful starship combat simulator in just a few pages and perhaps a simplification would be more useful, as well as some general templates sort of like in Star Fleet Battles. Boxes could be checked off as various hit location charts are consulted.

With the item creation rules above I think I can put out a pretty good starship creation system... I haven't tried it yet, but I think it will work... just with a few tweaks. As far as the "dryness" of the starships, I put a bunch of inside jokes in at the time because I was just throwing it together for playtest... the DVS-1 fighter was for Davis. The STPN-09 laser was for Stephen... the MAC Screen was a nod to Mac, legal Troll, while the EGG-1978a Fighter was for Gygax and the beginning of our hobby. I'll do my best to spice the section up a bit, though.

Quote:
8. The section on the SIEGE Engine is good, but as I read the part about C&C I couldnt help but wonder why Star SIEGE wasnt more compatible with C&C.

I'll see what I can do about conversion notes, but the only real difference between StarSIEGE and C&C is the lack of BAB, Hit Points, and different attributes. It's not a huge departure, in my opinion. But I'll see what I can do about making the transistion less painful for those who just want a space flavored C&C game.

As far as the name... we could always keep with the X&X ruling and call the game Starships & Sorties, Starships & Strife, or Starships & Space. Perhaps VoidSIEGE? or SIEGE in Space?

[rabindranath72]

Attributes created with 1d20 without modifiers? There is no meaningful average here, so a PC might get a 1, and another a 20 with the same probability...I have not read the document, but this does not seem a good idea.

[cheeplives]

It's a d20 based game! Why are we complaining about laws of averages for attributes alone?!

This is the attribute generation chart... it's curved, just not quite as well as 3d6 would be.

d20 == Attribute

1 == -3 (5% chance)

2 3 == -2 (10% chance)

4 7 == -1 (20% chance)

8 13 == 0 (30% chance)

14 17 == +1 (20% Chance)

18 19 == +2 (10% Chance)

20 == +3 (5% Chance)

I consider it "good enough". Note, I got rid of the "useless" 3-18 scores, since the "modifier" was the only used part of the attribute, even in C&C.

[rabindranath72]

Ah ok. As I said I did not read the document, and from the previous emails I got that you still had the scores.

Cheers,

Antonio

[Catweazle]

Traveller wrote:
NovaSIEGE.

As any astronomy buff or science-fiction buff knows, novae are new stars formed from coalescing gas and dust. The Latin root of nova is novus, which is translated into English as shown below.

I hate to be pedantic, and I've resisted for a while, but that's not quite correct. A nova is a short-lived phenomenon connected with binary stars, where one star of the binary is a white dwarf.

Eventually the other star runs out of hydrogen fuel and enters its own red giant phase. If the stars are close enough together, the white dwarf (a superdense stellar remnant containing much of the original star's mass but only about the size of the Earth) exerts enough gravitational attraction to pull gas from the now-bloated and diaphanous giant. This material collects in an accretion disc around the white dwarf. Where the stream hits the disc, the temperatures and pressures rise. If they rise high enough (millions of atmospheres pressure and 10+ million Kelvins), nuclear fusion is initiated, not in the depths of the star but right at the edge of the disc. This new, well, explosion really, lights up like a new star (hence, the term nova) and generally lasts for several days to weeks before the hydrogen in the area is used up, the reaction stops and the process begins again. Novae often occur quite regularly.

This should not be confused with a supernova, which is the explosive demise of a massive star (more than a minimum of 1.4 Solar masses, something called the Chandrasekhar Limit). These things last for weeks and shine brighter than the rest of the galaxy put together.

I still like the name, though!
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[serleran]

Quote:
And because I am a pain in the butt, when is Ruins and Radiation going to be put into production, and will it use C&C or will it use GalaxySIEGE?

And to be a larger pain in the butt:

Whenever I feel like it. And neither.

Or, less succinctly:

When extraneous time commitments are less severe, and contractual obligations cleaned. Besides, there is no official word, except my own (which means no TLG support) that there will be a R&R. This means, too, that there is no production. Once written, it might get published... but as of now, there is no statement to that effect.

As to the other part... it will not be based on whatever Cheeplives has, though some elements might be modified, or hacked. The same for C&C core. The core will be recognizable... but only as much as the SIEGE Engine is concerned. R&R will not have "classes" (none designed or contemplated anyway), and other aspects will resolve based entirely on SIEGE. So, it is a SIEGE game, but neither C&C or whatver name the current undertaking has.

[miller6]

If you want a name that means C&C space adventures...call it...

"SIEGE-E.T."

I think it's kinda catchy.

Brian
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[magehammer]

Thanks, serleran!!

As long as there is a chance that R&R will see the light of day, I am ecstatic. As I mentioned at Dragonsfoot, I will wait until the Apocalypse (or post apocalypse).

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[The Fiendish Dr. Samsara]

Couple of comments:

1. Josh, I gave you some comments a long time on this. If you cant find it, Ill look to see if I still have them. Mostly, I liked all the changes you made from C&C, such as no classes, no 3-18 attributes, skill bundles, and whatnot.

I recall not being crazy about some of the aliens (like the electrical guys) and being confused as to what would happen if you took two skill bundles that had the same skill in them (would get twice the bonus to your roll?).

2. I agree that alien/robot generation rules would be good. Ideally, you would have some simple rules, and then a few examples aliens. The rules would, Id think, involves changing stat max/min and giving bonus abilities in exchange for either chargen points (if youre using point-buy) or actual stat results (if rolling). I guess some kind of XP penalty might work too, but I hate those.

Hmn, or maybe some aliens have to use more NovaPoints than humans to achieve the same results? That is, maybe an alien starts out a bit objectively better than a human, but has less capacity for heroics/the Force/whatever. The comnverse might prove true as well: some aliens might start out a bit weaker, but be able to use Nova Points more efficiently. That would give you a SciFi equivalent of hobittses and plucky kids.

3. On names, I do rather like the idea of the X & X, but I cant think of too many S-words that work as the best two (Space and Stars) are near-analogs. Spaceships & Star Rangers or something sounds a bit goofy.

I wonder if one could riff off of Star Frontiers? Hmn. I guess the Alpha Space suggestion did that. I kind of like that.

Finally, bearing Castles & Crusades in mind, maybe use crusades: Star Crusades?

Gee, this is hard.

EDIT: Gee, my first post. Hello all.

[Tadhg]

The Fiendish Dr. Samsara wrote:
EDIT: Gee, my first post. Hello all.

Greetings and welcome, to the Fiendish Dr. Glad to see you over here!
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[gideon_thorne]

Wait... a title with Crusades in it...
Crusaders of the Cosmos!

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[The Fiendish Dr. Samsara]

Rhuvein wrote:
Greetings and welcome, to the Fiendish Dr. Glad to see you over here!

Thanks. Same to you, noble monk.

[cheeplives]

Samsara... yeah, your notes are the ones that first went into my revisions. I did note that a character can take a Skill Bundle only once, and I added an addtional Skill Bundle option to each profession to give some more options.

I also rewrote the cyber section allowing SIEGE Engineers to tweak how prevalent they want cyber to be.

I really am having trouble with an alien creation system... the different "racial" features are so varied I just can't come up with a strong algorithm to model them. I'll keep trying, though... I'm hoping to be done this weekend and submit the file to Davis and Steve...

[The Fiendish Dr. Samsara]

Well, I guess the idea is to assign some sort of "cost" to alien/robot abilities (and it really needs to include robots too), much as one somehow assigns an XP cost to class abilties in C&C. But in...uh...the Nameless Game, there is no XP chart or levels, so the cost has to be born by:
XP penalties
Attribute penalities
Metagame penalties
I think.

EDIT: Reread your post. You know all that. The formula is the tricky bit.

[cheeplives]

I know I'm behind schedule... by a whole week. But I'm on the last bit of the game... the hardest bit. "How to roleplay". I don't have a lot of space (I'm trying to cram it into two pages or less), but I think it's important to add in.

Here's what I have so far:

NovaSIEGE Document wrote:
Putting it all together

The previous sections outlined a host of rules and guidelines for NovaSIEGE, but little direction on how to actually run the game. Describing how to run a roleplaying game is quite difficult, as there are as many different ways to run a game as there are players playing them. The first, and foremost, lesson that a prospective SIEGE Engineer should take to the gaming table is this: Have fun. Never forget that this is a game and is done for entertainment. If ever anything in these rules impedes the fun for the SIEGE Engineer or the players, then the rules should be changed to enhance the fun. The rules are provided as a guideline and a way to adjudicate disputes rather than as a strict interpretation as to how things should be run. SIEGE Engineers should try to work with their players to make sure everyone is happy with their arbitration. On the other side of that coin, players should give the SIEGE Engineer the benefit of the doubt and not call into question every single rules call or plot point. A game should be run with trust and respect for all members.
The Story

Roleplaying games focus on a collaborative storytelling environment. It is the SIEGE Engineers job to develop and guide the story as it is being told. Some may liken the role of the SIEGE Engineer to that of an author or director, and both are apt metaphors. The SIEGE Engineer is responsible for creating the core plot and cast of characters for any game. The plot could be something as simple as Rescue Prisoners taken by an enemy faction to A Grand tale of descent and redemption, a fathers fall to evil and his daughters efforts to redeem him. SIEGE Engineers should try to constrain the plot to fit the group of players. If a group is mostly interested in fighting, then a plot revolving around intrigue or problem solving wont hold the players interest. It is often a good idea for a SIEGE Engineer to ask the players what type of game they would enjoy or are expecting and then model the plot around those expectations.

Creating a cast of characters is a more involved process, but important to the development of the plot. Some SIEGE Engineers might make complex webs of inter-relations between NPCs they create for the players to learn. This style of character casting is particularly helpful in intrigue-based games. Other SIEGE Engineers just jump into the game, making up characters and relationships on the fly. More often than not, a SIEGE Engineer will benefit from developing at least a core cast of NPCs for the story to be told, to at least create a core unit to build the story around. Doing so still allows for improvisation (which is vital to a game) while helping to maintain a core cohesion.

Remember to not over-do planning and development of the plot and characters. A well-crafted story might be interesting for the SIEGE Engineer, but much of that work might never be seen by the players. Moreover, stories that are too confined might leave the players with little to nothing to do as the SIEGE Engineer simply describes their grand machinations to the players, largely ignoring their involvement. A good story will center on the players and their characters. SIEGE Engineers must strive to make sure that none of their own NPCs will over-shadow the actions of the Player Characters. Non-Player Characters should work to help or hinder the Player Characters, but should never steal their glory. This doesnt mean that NPCs should always be beholden to the Player Characters, but that the SIEGE Engineer should always remember that the story being told is the Player Characters story, not any of the NPCs the SIEGE Engineer created.
Setting the Scene

Once a core cast and plot have been decided upon, the SIEGE Engineer has the task of providing the players with all the sensory information their characters are receiving. This can be daunting for a first time Engineer. The best rule to follow would be to trust the players. Give them a basic description of the setting and scene. Avoid florid prose when possible. Present things as succinctly and accurately as possible and then let the players ask questions. Let the players look for the details. As far as how much detail to provide, SIEGE Engineers should let their plot be their guide. If the players are barking up the wrong tree for details, steer them towards the right tree. Some players might try to cut through the questions and look for answers quickly or might touch on something that the SIEGE Engineer isnt ready to reveal yet in the story. In those cases, let the dice decide if the information will pass into the players hands or not. No one likes their good ideas to be shut down because the SIEGE Engineer isnt ready to release the information. It is the SIEGE Engineers job to roll with the unexpected leaps players make and incorporate them into the planned story-arc.
Improvise!

Improvisation is the most important tool a SIEGE Engineer can bring to the game. Well-crafted plots and intricate stories will not last long in front of the ingenuity of the players. SIEGE Engineers must be able to think on their feet and react to the schemes of the players while maintaining continuity with the plot they have in mind. First and foremost, SIEGE Engineers shouldnt panic when the player does something unexpected. The best thing to do is to go with what the player suggested if its not completely outlandish. Oftentimes, players will think of far more diabolical methods and plans than the SIEGE Engineer can concoct. SIEGE Engineers should be open to co-opting these suggestions as they will serve two methods. First, by adopting a players idea into the plot the SIEGE Engineer creates a more immersive experience. The player actually feels like their character matters. Second, the player will feel good about figuring out part of the SIEGE Engineers story, even if it really wasnt there. SIEGE Engineers should just admit after the game is over (and the whole story told) that they borrowed elements.

This isn't done, but are there any suggestions of things I should definitely not miss?

[/quote]

[The Fiendish Dr. Samsara]

cheeplives wrote:
This isn't done, but are there any suggestions of things I should definitely not miss?

Hmn, I don't know if it's not-to-miss, but I like to see some up-front discussion of the game's focus or (in the case of NovaSiege) it's generality. That is, how the mechanics support exploration games, war games, mercatile games, etc. Personally, I find these kind of discussions far more interesting and helpful than "what is role-playing" type things. Although, obviously, I'm not a beginner so....

[magehammer]

How is this project coming?
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[cheeplives]

Submitted to Troll Lords as of last week... waiting to hear from them per revisions, edits, and/or publication.

Hint, hint, Davis and Steve!

[magehammer]

Excellent!!

cheeplives, thanks for putting the whole thing together; I am waiting to benefit from the fruits of your labors. I am pretty excited for this one.

Oh, since I have you on the line here, will miniatures be mandatory to play the game, or will it be as with C&C: optional?
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[cheeplives]

NovaSIEGE uses an even more abstract movement system than C&C (but allows for more precise movement if players so wish). So, no minis necessary.

I hope you like what I've done with it... I think it turned out pretty well.