Whirlwind attack vs combat dominance

[jdizzy001]

Does combat dominance come up a lot? Once the PC's reach a certain level it seems that the DM would stop using 1HD creatures. Wouldn't the barbarian's whirlwind attack be more effective? I am not advocating one over the other, I am just curious about what others think. Honestly, I am trying to think of a way to change up combat dominance a bit. How would awarding extra atk early on and removing combat dominance completely effect game play?

[Treebore]

In my copious amounts of running and playing C&C Combat Dominance simply sucks as written. So I house ruled it to actually be more like a Whirlwind Attack. Its written up in my house rules, which I think I gave you a link to yesterday.

Some people think its overpowered, but the fighter is putting themselves in more danger to do it, IE opening themselves up to flanking and backstab bonus', so they usually take a lot more hits while doing it, plus it is still no where near as dangerous as a Wizard doing 5d6, or more, lots more, of damage in a 20' radius area.

So I find it funny how on one hand the complaint of how overpowered the Wizard, Cleric and Druid is will be thrown about, but when you write up a rule that moves the Fighter a few steps closer to being as powerful as the spell casters, its too much.

[Arduin]

Does combat dominance come up a lot? Once the PC's reach a certain level it seems that the DM would stop using 1HD creatures.

I create a world that is more realistic than the video game approach to GMing. The world ecology doesn't magically change just because the PC's gain life experience. Some think that is a "strange" approach to running a game world...

The PC's WILL run into higher HD monsters as they choose to explore more dangerous places. But, that doesn't mean that the low HD vermin aren't in the same abundance in the same locals as when the PC's had less experience. So, it just depends on where the players decide to go...

[Rigon]

I increase the level of HD that Combat Dominance effects as the fighter gains in levels. I have it at a 1/4 level to the fighter. So a 12th level fighter would be able to make 3 extra attacks against 3HD or less creatures. This still makes it some what useful, without going all "Treebore" ( ) with the fighter.
Plus I add in extra attacks and a Cleave in my house rules so technically a 4th level fighter with Dominance in my game would have 3 attacks in the first round and 2 attacks in the second round before any cleaving is started. Which could push the number of attacks way up.

R-

[Omote]

I disagree with the notion that Combat Dominance is not a good skill. For some reason, CKs tend to avoid sending 1HD creatures at characters when they are higher levels. This is C&C! A mob of 1HD creatures can certainly be a fairly formidable opponent.

Just because PCs become higher levels, that doesn't mean that Kobolds and goblins just disappear from the campaign world. A well placed mob of 1HD creatures can be frightenly difficult against PCs with low to mid ACs. Sure, the fighter might have a 20+ AC, which makes hitting him difficult, but the goblins will go after the weaker foes first, right, perhaps to even up the odds? Let the fighter come in a clean up the 1HD foes like the hammer he is. But, in most cases the fighter will only have 1 or 2 attacks against the enemy. Throw in 25 kobolds, and they have the chance to hit 25 time per round where the fighter can only clear out a few at a time.

Into the kobold warren your party goes. Up ahead, an angry mob of 100 kobolds spills from the caverns and comes upon your party like a wave of little terrors. Roll for initiative.

~O

[Arduin]

Into the kobold warren your party goes. Up ahead, an angry mob of 100 kobolds spills from the caverns and comes upon your party like a wave of little terrors. Roll for initiative.

~O

Roll for Initiative? More like run for your life.

[Dracyian]

throw a necklace of fireballs at them?

[Treebore]

Here is why I don't throw 1 HD creatures at, say, a 5th level party, especially fighter and cleric types. There AC is usually a 20 or higher, due to Full Plate + Shield. Usually they have a DEX bonus or Expert armor, or both. So a 1 HD creature can hit only an a Nat 20. WOOHOO! Tedium in dice rolling, class 101!

So what about Grappling? Lets see, defender gets to add BtH, DEX and STR to base of 12 or 18, depending on Primes. Fighters, by the book, will have STR Prime, so their AC will start at 18, add BtH of +5, AC 23. Then add any STR or DEX. Then size difference. Lets use the Kobolds mentioned above. So now add size difference, a -2 modifier for Small going against Medium. Final effective AC is 25, assuming no DEX or STR modifiers, and with a Fighter, they likely have a few points.

So another class of tedious dice rolling. I'd much rather spend my time rolling "to hit" rolls for creatures that have better than a 1 in 20 chance of hitting. So I'll use something like an Ogre, and like in 1E AD&D, I'll assume they all have an 18 STR, and be +7 to hit the above mentioned AC's.

But hey, this is C&C, if you like tedious dice rolls, go for it!

[Treebore]

Lets also not forget that in C&C you don't even get the awesomeness that is (not) Combat Dominance until 4th level, when the party AC's start to go above a AC of 20. Sure, I could always just target the Wizard, Illusionist, Barbarian, Bard or Monk, if there even is one, but that gets old real fast too.

Its far better to just rewrite it into something that is actually usable, gets rid of tedious dice rolls, and gets the Fighter class a little more power, which it absolutely can stand to get, at a fair risk to itself with all the Flanking and back attacks it can take while doing it. Which is why I did it.

[serleran]

Here is why I don't throw 1 HD creatures at, say, a 5th level party, especially fighter and cleric types. There AC is usually a 20 or higher, due to Full Plate + Shield. Usually they have a DEX bonus or Expert armor, or both. So a 1 HD creature can hit only an a Nat 20. WOOHOO! Tedium in dice rolling, class 101!

So what about Grappling? Lets see, defender gets to add BtH, DEX and STR to base of 12 or 18, depending on Primes. Fighters, by the book, will have STR Prime, so their AC will start at 18, add BtH of +5, AC 23. Then add any STR or DEX. Then size difference. Lets use the Kobolds mentioned above. So now add size difference, a -2 modifier for Small going against Medium. Final effective AC is 25, assuming no DEX or STR modifiers, and with a Fighter, they likely have a few points.

So another class of tedious dice rolling. I'd much rather spend my time rolling "to hit" rolls for creatures that have better than a 1 in 20 chance of hitting. So I'll use something like an Ogre, and like in 1E AD&D, I'll assume they all have an 18 STR, and be +7 to hit the above mentioned AC's.

But hey, this is C&C, if you like tedious dice rolls, go for it!

You're forgetting or ignoring some things, notably:

Numbers. A man-sized creature can be attacked by at least 4 foes at once, possibly up to 8. Each one is going to give a bonus to the other and only a few (2 or 3) need to hit before the others do so automatically. Then, once they've got you, their numbers will keep you down.

Nets, rope, and man-catchers which ignore high AC and make that Str Prime super-tank rely on his probably much weaker Dexterity. Enemies that have good Dex don't tend to have great AC because of armor restrictions.

Size. Little guys can get in places you can't and don't want to be in like the keystone of an archway, between your legs (which really helps negate that Dex adjustment) or crannies letting them launch assaults and remain defended.

Of course, kobolds and the like do not have to be played that way but treating them like a frontal assault wave is a tremendous disservice.

[Arduin]

You're forgetting or ignoring some things, notably:

Numbers. A man-sized creature can be attacked by at least 4 foes at once, possibly up to 8. Each one is going to give a bonus to the other and only a few (2 or 3) need to hit before the others do so automatically. Then, once they've got you, their numbers will keep you down.

Agreed. Playing them like mindless zombies is not good GMing. Numbers WILL tell. I could EASILY play them so as to give a high level fighter serious and, possibly fatal, problem.

[jdizzy001]

Alright, then riddle me this. How does altering combat dominance interfere with the barbarians whirlwind attack (Balancewise I mean)? Or does the barbarians extra abilities outweigh the limited use of whirlwind attack?

[Snoring Rock]

Sir Jdizzy,
It appears that you have touched on a subject that many of us have already beaten to death. There are two camps; 1 states that 1HD challenges should not exist at higher levels and therefore CD is broken; and 2 that CD is great for higher level against hordes of 1 HD minions. The same thing exists in 4e with minions, but less dice worn on the table.

That is why no one has really answered your question as asked. Me; well I am in camp #2 and I would not use WWA instead of CD. I like the rules as they are and my players love rolling against hordes of minions. They just love it. We do not feel anything is broken here. If you do, change it. Tree has some ideas that work for him. I would try that before giving the barbarian powers to someone else. Make up something new, but leave the barbarian with his really cool ability that just belongs to him.

MHO

[jdizzy001]

good call rocky. Using CD as an anti minion device. I wonder why I didn't think of that. Its funny how things don't always make sense until you can hear it from someone else's POV.

For the record, if I do change it (not in my current campaign because no one is playing a fighter ) I would drop CD completely and give the fighter extra attack at level 4 or 5 instead of level 10.

Great. Thanks for the input everyone.

[Omote]

I hate to keep getting off target from the OPs question, but I wanted to throw in some wisdom from Gary Gygax on this one. I've seen him say this on a few occasions, but it's worth repeating here. In reference to kobolds, goblins and other 1HD baddies, you can have sub-chiefs and chiefs which have more than 1HD, but to make the masses a bit tougher without significantly changing the game, you give 'em +1 to hit and +1 to damage. I've used that mentality for a long time. You can show off tougher tribes of low-level baddies with an overall +1 here and +1 there. Perhaps that is not enough to sway your thought process, but I have witnessed how tough a ton of these things can be.

Treebore also mentioned something interesting above:

Lets also not forget that in C&C you don't even get the awesomeness that is (not) Combat Dominance until 4th level, when the party AC's start to go above a AC of 20.

This could be a manner of CKing. I am running a game currently where the characters are all 5th or 6th level. We have a fighter, cleric, and a few knights as well as a handful of other classes. I find it interesting that in my games, these front-line guys have ACs in the high teens, not 20+. I think the cleric of all classes has an AC of 21. Treebore is not doing it wrong, but he brings up a great point: AC is C&C is a very powerful thing. If you give out a ton of +AC items, it really makes all of the small fry bad guys (even 1-4HD) not very threatening. I think C&C is built in a manner to not have characters to have as much LOOT as typically found in 3E-style games. In the Trolls own games, their characters do not seem to have oodles of magical items, in particular high +AC items. It's a manner of approach, but I tend to agree with this method.

~O

[Arduin]

This could be a manner of CKing. I am running a game currently where the characters are all 5th or 6th level. We have a fighter, cleric, and a few knights as well as a handful of other classes. I find it interesting that in my games, these front-line guys have ACs in the high teens, not 20+.

At that level it is PC choice. Plate Armour & a +1 shield would give AC 20. Other possibilities too. Unless you as a CK are forbidding them to purchase even non-magical stuff, it's a player choice to have a low AC at that level.

[Omote]

I admit, in my games, plate (full) armor is not found in every hovel one comes across. In fact, plate mail isn't as readily available either. In most cases such things can only be found in cities where a smith can make a living selling wares to those who seek such luxuries or for the soldiery. Frequently enough, one of the sayings among some of my players is "speed is life." Now that this is brought up it makes me remember that most of my players do not want high encumbrance.

~O

[Arduin]

I admit, in my games, plate (full) armor is not found in every hovel one comes across. In fact, plate mail isn't as readily available either. In most cases such things can only be found in cities where a smith can make a living selling wares to those who seek such luxuries or for the soldiery.
~O

Who said ANYTHING about hovels??? GENERALLY, one gets this type of armour made for them by paying money. So, my point stands that it is a player's decision to NOT spend treasure on armour, and I have NO idea why you are talking about lower class housing and avoiding the conversation.

[Rigon]

I admit, in my games, plate (full) armor is not found in every hovel one comes across. In fact, plate mail isn't as readily available either. In most cases such things can only be found in cities where a smith can make a living selling wares to those who seek such luxuries or for the soldiery.
~O

Who said ANYTHING about hovels??? GENERALLY, one gets this type of armour made for them by paying money. So, my point stands that it is a player's decision to NOT spend treasure on armour, and I have NO idea why you are talking about lower class housing and avoiding the conversation.

I think you missed O's point. He's saying, that even if the PCs have the gold to buy the armor, there aren't smiths around every corner to that can make it. And there is no need to get snarky with people.

R-

[Omote]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

[Rigon]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

I gots your back, big O.

R-

[Arduin]

He's saying, that even if the PCs have the gold to buy the armor, there aren't smiths around every corner to that can make it.

R-

And never stated that there was... Just like I never stated that masterwork armour can be found laying around in low end housing units..

[Rigon]

He's saying, that even if the PCs have the gold to buy the armor, there aren't smiths around every corner to that can make it.

R-

And never stated that there was... Just like I never stated that masterwork armour can be found laying around in low end housing units..

That doesn't change the fact that you missed his point.

R-

[Lurker]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

I gots your back, big O.

R-

I'm with you all on that.

My home brew, there is no plate. At best reinforced chain or coat of plates. With that, it becomes critical that the players pay attention to the little things in their armor (helmet vambrace greaves).

... Frequently enough, one of the sayings among some of my players is "speed is life." Now that this is brought up it makes me remember that most of my players do not want high encumbrance.

~O

Not only is that true in my game, but also in real life. My battle rattle was always as little as possible (normally a helmet, chest plates and LBE for all the rounds I carried). You have a better chance at sprinting through the X than you do if you are covered in armor but lumber around ...

[Rigon]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

I gots your back, big O.

R-

I'm with you all on that.

My home brew, there is no plate. At best reinforced chain or coat of plates. With that, it becomes critical that the players pay attention to the little things in their armor (helmet vambrace greaves).

... Frequently enough, one of the sayings among some of my players is "speed is life." Now that this is brought up it makes me remember that most of my players do not want high encumbrance.

~O

Not only is that true in my game, but also in real life. My battle rattle was always as little as possible (normally a helmet, chest plates and LBE for all the rounds I carried). You have a better chance at sprinting through the X than you do if you are covered in armor but lumber around ...

To go along with what O and Lurker are saying, whenever I make a character, I almost always put a high score in Dex and wear light weight armors. Even if I was playing a fighter, I'd still opt for the chain mail over the full plate any time. Style, baby, style.

R-

[Dracyian]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

I gots your back, big O.

R-

I'm with you all on that.

My home brew, there is no plate. At best reinforced chain or coat of plates. With that, it becomes critical that the players pay attention to the little things in their armor (helmet vambrace greaves).

... Frequently enough, one of the sayings among some of my players is "speed is life." Now that this is brought up it makes me remember that most of my players do not want high encumbrance.

~O

Not only is that true in my game, but also in real life. My battle rattle was always as little as possible (normally a helmet, chest plates and LBE for all the rounds I carried). You have a better chance at sprinting through the X than you do if you are covered in armor but lumber around ...

To go along with what O and Lurker are saying, whenever I make a character, I almost always put a high score in Dex and wear light weight armors. Even if I was playing a fighter, I'd still opt for the chain mail over the full plate any time. Style, baby, style.

R-

R you want style you should wear scale mail, and not just any scale mail but Dragon Scale Mail. Thats right folks for a limited time offer for a mere 10,000 platinum pieces I will turn your collection of harvested dragon scales into the perfect scale mail tunic in under a week.

[Rigon]

Uhhhh, I'm going to go with Rigon on this one. He stated it better than I did (thanks!).

~O

I gots your back, big O.

R-

I'm with you all on that.

My home brew, there is no plate. At best reinforced chain or coat of plates. With that, it becomes critical that the players pay attention to the little things in their armor (helmet vambrace greaves).

... Frequently enough, one of the sayings among some of my players is "speed is life." Now that this is brought up it makes me remember that most of my players do not want high encumbrance.

~O

Not only is that true in my game, but also in real life. My battle rattle was always as little as possible (normally a helmet, chest plates and LBE for all the rounds I carried). You have a better chance at sprinting through the X than you do if you are covered in armor but lumber around ...

To go along with what O and Lurker are saying, whenever I make a character, I almost always put a high score in Dex and wear light weight armors. Even if I was playing a fighter, I'd still opt for the chain mail over the full plate any time. Style, baby, style.

R-

R you want style you should wear scale mail, and not just any scale mail but Dragon Scale Mail. Thats right folks for a limited time offer for a mere 10,000 platinum pieces I will turn your collection of harvested dragon scales into the perfect scale mail tunic in under a week.

R-

[Dracyian]

also on a serious note, its fucken hard to swim in full plate, which is why my character wears leather, at least she can swim in that

[Snoring Rock]

Ok....has anyone here tried swimming in leather armor? That is no small feat. Leather soaks water up and chemically turns into lead. I see why armored swimming did make the cut in the Olympic games.

[Omote]

It's also prudent in many cases to give the character in big, bulky armor penalties to a check to notice things by sound or sight. If that great helm is on, you can't see or hear very well at all.

That reminds me of the TLG video from about a year or so ago. They dressed Troll Lord Davis up in 50-80 pounds of gear, gave him a zweihander, and told him to walk up the hill. He had a very hard time and it took a while if I recall. I do remember so laughing at his behalf. Haha.

~O