Knight Help

[jdizzy001]

My campaign is going well. We just finished session 6. However, the knight is noticing that everyone (rogue, wizard, and ranger) have all out damaged him by virtue of their class. Everyone has a +1 weapon so it isn't weapons per se. The rouge uses back/sneak attack to deal extra damage, the ranger has marauder to deal extra dmg, and the wizard … well a pc level 6 fireball followed by pc level 6 lightning bolt literally clears rooms. The knight however, is feeling very left out. Yes, he has some tactical knowledge to gain (the whole group is made of noobs), he uses inspire and embolden and demoralize at the wrong time. All that aside, how do you recommend I "boost" the knight so the player isn't so disgruntled. My first option is to provide more opportunities for him to fight from horseback since they do x3 dmg from horse back, but what about those pesky cave where your horse just won't fit?

[Sir Izzy]

Giving him a chance to use a lance on the battlefield would certainly give him an opportunity to shine. This is the Knight's primary offensive weapon. Most of the Knight's abilities are designed to help those around him – inspire, embolden, etc.

Maybe try to find a way to work in the "Knightly Virtues and Code of Conduct." While not providing opportunities for increased prowess on the battlefield, they can give the Knight some time in the spotlight, and lead to some good role playing opportunities.

Another possibility could be to develop a unique magic weapon that improves and gains additional abilities as the Knight gains more levels. Or a weapon that is extra effective against a particular type of enemy – goblinoids, for example.

If he's really focused on dealing lots of damage, he could always play a different character class.

[redwullf]

Giving him a chance to use a lance on the battlefield would certainly give him an opportunity to shine. This is the Knight's primary offensive weapon. Most of the Knight's abilities are designed to help those around him – inspire, embolden, etc.

Maybe try to find a way to work in the "Knightly Virtues and Code of Conduct." While not providing opportunities for increased prowess on the battlefield, they can give the Knight some time in the spotlight, and lead to some good role playing opportunities.

Another possibility could be to develop a unique magic weapon that improves and gains additional abilities as the Knight gains more levels. Or a weapon that is extra effective against a particular type of enemy – goblinoids, for example.

If he's really focused on dealing lots of damage, he could always play a different character class.

I'd like to see the other classes take the beating the knight can take. The lower damage from the knight compared to the classes you mentioned is a trade off for his access to excellent armor, survivabilty, and the boon he provides his allies.

[jdizzy001]

Giving him a chance to use a lance on the battlefield would certainly give him an opportunity to shine. This is the Knight's primary offensive weapon. Most of the Knight's abilities are designed to help those around him – inspire, embolden, etc.

Maybe try to find a way to work in the "Knightly Virtues and Code of Conduct." While not providing opportunities for increased prowess on the battlefield, they can give the Knight some time in the spotlight, and lead to some good role playing opportunities.

Another possibility could be to develop a unique magic weapon that improves and gains additional abilities as the Knight gains more levels. Or a weapon that is extra effective against a particular type of enemy – goblinoids, for example.

If he's really focused on dealing lots of damage, he could always play a different character class.

I'd like to see the other classes take the beating the knight can take. The lower damage from the knight compared to the classes you mentioned is a trade off for his access to excellent armor, survivabilty, and the boon he provides his allies.

Sadly, taking a beating hasn't impressed anyone. Last night everyone got walloped, the wizard nearly died, and no one was impressed. Since this is a group of newbies they think more dmg = better character. They haven't mastered the RP part of the game. The only other player in the group that has RP exp came from a group that constantly tried to kill each other so it throws off any attempt to have a successful moment of RP since he is constantly thinking of ways to disrupt the flow of the campaign.

I think getting him on a horse is going to be the most effective way to help him feel that he contributes. I also need to remind him how to use his inspire, embolden and demoralize abilites.

[Buttmonkey]

It sounds like what he really wants to play in a fighter who has been knighted as a social honor and live by a chivalrous code. If that's true, propose converting the PC to a fighter (weapon specializiation should help the PC shine), dump the knight class abilities, and slap a chivalry code on the PC.

[Treebore]

Something is going strange if the Thief/rogue is getting in and dealing out more damage than the Knight. Its not easy to pull off backstabs. Sneak Attacks at 4th level are a bit easier, but even then the Thief does not have the "staying power" of the heavy fighters with their heavier armor. So in a big fight they won't be staying in the fight for long with their much lower AC and HP. Plus a Knight on horseback, with all the penalties they do not suffer, and bonus they do gain, are absolutely kick butt! Knights are awesome at what they do, which is lead men and mow down the enemy on the battle field. No other class comes close to doing it as well, let alone better.

[Dracyian]

What about a long drawn out dungeon crawl allowing the knight to outlast and by that same thought process deal more damage, allow the wizard to run out of spells, put non combat marauder foes in the dungeon taking that bonus away from the ranger and make it a well lit dungeon or enemies who are terribly difficult to sneak up on. This would also give the players the chance to stop and think having to rely on their brains and develop rp skills,maybe have them come across a dying level 13 cleric to give them a res or a mass heal to keep them going with out a rest and make it real nice dungeon crawl, just my thoughts. I got on a grizzly nasty drawn out dungeon crawl kick all of a sudden

[Treebore]

What level are they? Because I am wondering if part of the problem is they are all first or second level. The class differences don't really even start to differentiate until 3rd level. Which become more and more obvious as they go up in level from there. Aside from spell casters. Their difference is a bit obvious.

[redwullf]

It sounds like what he really wants to play in a fighter who has been knighted as a social honor and live by a chivalrous code. If that's true, propose converting the PC to a fighter (weapon specializiation should help the PC shine), dump the knight class abilities, and slap a chivalry code on the PC.

Actually, it sounds like the players are the problem, not the classes or the rules. Time for some gentle, persuasive education.

[jdizzy001]

They're level 6. This is a fast campaign. Since they're noobs and we dont have a lot time i wanted the pc's to level up quickly. A lot of the issue is partially my fault. I havent given the knight many chances to ride his horse into combat. There are also a lot of little things i didnt anticipate when i switched from d&d to c&c. I did make sneak atk far to easy to use. The other elements such as rogues holding the front line with the knight has just been dumb luck. Good rolls on the part of the rogue, poor rolls on the part of the ck and knight.

The ranger (the pc with experience in RP) understands how to stay alive, having played with backstabbers, so he usually comes out unscathed. He hangs out in the back with the wizard. I kid you not, last session as all the other players ended the fight against 15 troglodytes in a critical near death state, some how he managed to avoid loosing a single hit point.

[Treebore]

I don't know about 4E, but even in 3E D&D the rogue still had to "sneak" in to do a backstab, or get a flanking position. So still dangerous to the low AC and D6 Rogue.

[Lobo316]

They're level 6. This is a fast campaign. Since they're noobs and we dont have a lot time i wanted the pc's to level up quickly. A lot of the issue is partially my fault. I havent given the knight many chances to ride his horse into combat. There are also a lot of little things i didnt anticipate when i switched from d&d to c&c. I did make sneak atk far to easy to use. The other elements such as rogues holding the front line with the knight has just been dumb luck. Good rolls on the part of the rogue, poor rolls on the part of the ck and knight.

The ranger (the pc with experience in RP) understands how to stay alive, having played with backstabbers, so he usually comes out unscathed. He hangs out in the back with the wizard. I kid you not, last session as all the other players ended the fight against 15 troglodytes in a critical near death state, some how he managed to avoid loosing a single hit point.

If they are all level 6, then your not using the scaling XP. Class balance in C&C (and old school D&D) is partially based on level and experience. If the knight is level 6, the wizard should be somewhere around 2nd or 3rd if I am correct. Same with any cleric. Thier level progression is much slower. Which would actually make the rouge a bit higher, but he still should not have the AC/HP or attack bonus of the knight.

In hindsight, you need to put some level disparity between them to help balance them. It's not until 3rd edition D&D that the classes all started using one experience table, and the game made an effort to make everyone balaced regardless of level.

I like the suggestion to switch him to a "knighted" fighter. Remove the knight class abitilies and make him a fighter with a title. You can still RP a knight but not have those class abilities.

I als think this does sound like an inexperienced group, and only time and experience will change that.

[jdizzy001]

I don't know about 4E, but even in 3E D&D the rogue still had to "sneak" in to do a backstab, or get a flanking position. So still dangerous to the low AC and D6 Rogue.

Yeah, 4e back attack/sneak attack was super easy to obtain, but wasn't nearly as powerful. Like I said, the rogue has just experienced a streak of good luck.

They're level 6. This is a fast campaign. Since they're noobs and we dont have a lot time i wanted the pc's to level up quickly. A lot of the issue is partially my fault. I havent given the knight many chances to ride his horse into combat. There are also a lot of little things i didnt anticipate when i switched from d&d to c&c. I did make sneak atk far to easy to use. The other elements such as rogues holding the front line with the knight has just been dumb luck. Good rolls on the part of the rogue, poor rolls on the part of the ck and knight.

The ranger (the pc with experience in RP) understands how to stay alive, having played with backstabbers, so he usually comes out unscathed. He hangs out in the back with the wizard. I kid you not, last session as all the other players ended the fight against 15 troglodytes in a critical near death state, some how he managed to avoid loosing a single hit point.

If they are all level 6, then your not using the scaling XP. Class balance in C&C (and old school D&D) is partially based on level and experience. If the knight is level 6, the wizard should be somewhere around 2nd or 3rd if I am correct. Same with any cleric. Thier level progression is much slower. Which would actually make the rouge a bit higher, but he still should not have the AC/HP or attack bonus of the knight.

In hindsight, you need to put some level disparity between them to help balance them. It's not until 3rd edition D&D that the classes all started using one experience table, and the game made an effort to make everyone balaced regardless of level.

I like the suggestion to switch him to a "knighted" fighter. Remove the knight class abitilies and make him a fighter with a title. You can still RP a knight but not have those class abilities.

I als think this does sound like an inexperienced group, and only time and experience will change that.

I haven't noticed any huge disparities between the classes (Aside from the knight). Yes the wizard has fireball, the ranger has marauder, the assassin has poisons and back attack, and the knight has his support abilities. I really don't see how scaling the xp of each class creates more balance? That's just my personal opinion and I am grateful for your contributions to aid me in my plight.

[Fizz]

If they are all level 6, then your not using the scaling XP. Class balance in C&C (and old school D&D) is partially based on level and experience. If the knight is level 6, the wizard should be somewhere around 2nd or 3rd if I am correct. Same with any cleric. Thier level progression is much slower. Which would actually make the rouge a bit higher, but he still should not have the AC/HP or attack bonus of the knight.

No, it's not that extreme. If the knight is level 6, he's got at least 36,001 xp. That number of xp would put the wizard at 5th level (and 3/4 of the way to 6th). The cleric would be a mere 1000xp over 6th level. Even the thief would still be 6th, but fully half-way to 7th.

Unless you mean something else by "scaling XP" ?

I like the suggestion to switch him to a "knighted" fighter. Remove the knight class abitilies and make him a fighter with a title. You can still RP a knight but not have those class abilities.

Interesting, i was going to say the same thing but with a different meaning. One could swap the usual mounted combat abilities for a fighter ability (maybe combat dominance). In this sense, he'd still be a battlefield commander, just not a mounted one.


-Fizz

[zombiehands]

I have a problem with the knight as written, his niche does not seem to be adventuring in a dungeon, he is even worst the ranger below ground. I have suggested in the past that his abilities could be tied to charging rather than times per day. But that might be too powerful.

The class as written does not seem to conjure what I expect out of knight. To me a knight is the elite warrior not a commander. A knight errant. Maybe I have two much AD&D on my mind, but to me the call to arms should be a fighter ability. Inspire, Demoralize, etc are good abilities but they seem set to a specific type of game. I think that if I were playing a game with lots of "scenes" where the knight could shine it would be pretty boring for everyone but the wizard and cleric (who also can affect large groups of people)

Personally I would rather the see the knight be more like the Cavalier in 1e. For those that are not familiar with them they have to hit (and damage bonus I think) with "knightly" type weapons, superior defenses, and resistance to mental influence. They also have a honor code. Some people might think that would make him just better than the fighter. Yes I guess it would but the fighter needs less xps and is not tied to a code of conduct.

I have a second idea though. Leave the knight pretty much as is but add armor specialization (+1 AC at 1st level and +2 at 7th), and give them a smite ability usable LV/4 times a day and maybe only in single combat. I think I would drop call to arms and battle field dominance.

Just wondering, do many on the Troll Lord Modules include parts of adventure were the party is commanding large forces or where there is a lot of "scenes" where horses are helpful?

[Treebore]

No large size forces but a fair number of fights in areas open enough to use your mount. Not a lot, still many encounters take place inside of some kind of tunnels or building. But you do plenty of road travel with random encounters where its open enough for a Knight to at least fight from Horseback, and some times even charge.

[zombiehands]

My adventures tend to be dungeon centric so I would like everyone to be useful in that situation.
The knight is really the worst in a traditonal D&D type adventure.

[Lurker]

My adventures tend to be dungeon centric so I would like everyone to be useful in that situation.
The knight is really the worst in a traditonal D&D type adventure.

It's funny how wide a verity we can have in our hobby.

For me, the classic dungeon adventure is my least favorite. I love more wilderness adventures with a few caves (or even big 'dungeons' like Moria) here and there. Also, I lean more to social role-playing than hack and slash at times. So with those, a knight can shine!

However

...

Personally I would rather the see the knight be more like the Cavalier in 1e. For those that are not familiar with them they have to hit (and damage bonus I think) with "knightly" type weapons, superior defenses, and resistance to mental influence. They also have a honor code. Some people might think that would make him just better than the fighter. Yes I guess it would but the fighter needs less xps and is not tied to a code of conduct.

I love the Cavalier from 1e. If I do ever get to run my home brew, I just might morph the current knight with the old Cavalier.

[Lobo316]

If they are all level 6, then your not using the scaling XP. Class balance in C&C (and old school D&D) is partially based on level and experience. If the knight is level 6, the wizard should be somewhere around 2nd or 3rd if I am correct. Same with any cleric. Thier level progression is much slower. Which would actually make the rouge a bit higher, but he still should not have the AC/HP or attack bonus of the knight.

No, it's not that extreme. If the knight is level 6, he's got at least 36,001 xp. That number of xp would put the wizard at 5th level (and 3/4 of the way to 6th). The cleric would be a mere 1000xp over 6th level. Even the thief would still be 6th, but fully half-way to 7th.

Unless you mean something else by "scaling XP" ?

-Fizz

Hmmmmm...OK, that's not as bad as I thought. I guess the class balance in "leveling" doesnt' have as large an impact as I was thinking. I believe it does still have an impact mind you, but that's likely not the issue here. Thanks for the observation Fizz.

[Lobo316]

I have a problem with the knight as written, his niche does not seem to be adventuring in a dungeon, he is even worst the ranger below ground. I have suggested in the past that his abilities could be tied to charging rather than times per day. But that might be too powerful.

The class as written does not seem to conjure what I expect out of knight. To me a knight is the elite warrior not a commander. A knight errant. Maybe I have two much AD&D on my mind, but to me the call to arms should be a fighter ability. Inspire, Demoralize, etc are good abilities but they seem set to a specific type of game. I think that if I were playing a game with lots of "scenes" where the knight could shine it would be pretty boring for everyone but the wizard and cleric (who also can affect large groups of people)

Personally I would rather the see the knight be more like the Cavalier in 1e. For those that are not familiar with them they have to hit (and damage bonus I think) with "knightly" type weapons, superior defenses, and resistance to mental influence. They also have a honor code. Some people might think that would make him just better than the fighter. Yes I guess it would but the fighter needs less xps and is not tied to a code of conduct.

I have a second idea though. Leave the knight pretty much as is but add armor specialization (+1 AC at 1st level and +2 at 7th), and give them a smite ability usable LV/4 times a day and maybe only in single combat. I think I would drop call to arms and battle field dominance.

Just wondering, do many on the Troll Lord Modules include parts of adventure were the party is commanding large forces or where there is a lot of "scenes" where horses are helpful?

Not to change the topic from the OP, but I can definately see where zombie is coming from here. I've always had a bit of an issue with the design of the knight. I love everything they've done from the knight when mounted. But off the mount, i've always thought they lacked something.

I actually kind dig your suggestion for armor specilization. I think a bonus on will power saves could also be in order.

[serleran]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

[Fizz]

Armor specialization is indeed a nice little boon. I use that too, though i implement it differently. Instead of giving a +1 AC though, it negates one point of penalty for any ability checks. For example, a normal character might suffer a -6 to jump checks while wearing full plate, but a knight would suffer only a -5 penalty.

I find this gives the knight a bit of a boon with many skills or checks, while highlighting the notion that he's the tough tank.

-Fizz

[Lurker]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

Rgr that! I was flipping through UA the other night and saw how quickly the caviler got followers and henchmen. That tied to the C&C knight's inspire would be a huge boon.

[zombiehands]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

Rgr that! I was flipping through UA the other night and saw how quickly the caviler got followers and henchmen. That tied to the C&C knight's inspire would be a huge boon.

Actually I don't see followers listed in the UA for Cavaliers
Here is a break down of their abilitles
+1 to hit with lance at lv 1, +1 a Sword at lv 3, +1 to hit with a horseman's weapon at lv 5. This increases at levels 7, 9, and 11
He can attack with his these weapons as if he was 5 levels higher for # of attack
He get +1 damage dismounted and +1 damage per level mounted with a lance
He can parry adding his to hit bonus to AC or 2 parries if he uses shield. No attack when parrying
Attacks as one level higher when mounted
May vault into the saddle at 3rd level.
May urge mount to greater speed at 5th level
Any steed selected by a him has +2 HP per die
Gains attributed as he level (Kind of an unfair advanatage)
Immune to fear
radites protection from fear 10' or 10yd radius inside/outside
90% immunuity and +2 save vs beguiling, charm, domination, hold, hypnosis etc
they can fight to -4 to -13 hp
Must pledge to code of chiv.

[zombiehands]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

Having to hire henchmen does not feel like a knight. Lancelot did not need an entourage. Maybe if the name of the class was Warlord or Battleleader that might make sense. That is probably an easier 'fix" for the knight.

[zombiehands]

My adventures tend to be dungeon centric so I would like everyone to be useful in that situation.
The knight is really the worst in a traditonal D&D type adventure.

It's funny how wide a verity we can have in our hobby.

For me, the classic dungeon adventure is my least favorite. I love more wilderness adventures with a few caves (or even big 'dungeons' like Moria) here and there. Also, I lean more to social role-playing than hack and slash at times. So with those, a knight can shine!

However

...

Personally I would rather the see the knight be more like the Cavalier in 1e. For those that are not familiar with them they have to hit (and damage bonus I think) with "knightly" type weapons, superior defenses, and resistance to mental influence. They also have a honor code. Some people might think that would make him just better than the fighter. Yes I guess it would but the fighter needs less xps and is not tied to a code of conduct.

I love the Cavalier from 1e. If I do ever get to run my home brew, I just might morph the current knight with the old Cavalier.

roleplaying really does not need any numbers or class abilities on your character sheet. So I tend to think rules really should be just for things like combat and feat compeletion (class abilities). Even then things like checking for traps can be done without rolling in many cases. Hitting the floor infront of you will detect pressure plates for example. Rules, to me should be for the Hack and Slash (magic and combat).

In my games a knight shines in social situtations if he roleplays well.

[serleran]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

Having to hire henchmen does not feel like a knight. Lancelot did not need an entourage. Maybe if the name of the class was Warlord or Battleleader that might make sense. That is probably an easier 'fix" for the knight.

If you consider Lancelot a "knight" in the C&C archetype, I'd agree. But, I don't. Lancelot would be a fighter with some knightly training and a lot of natural talent, perhaps expressed through CKG "advantages." However, someone like Roland would be a knight and he certainly had a band of followers/buddies. But, it comes down to how one "sees" the knight -- the rules imply that the knight class should lead, whether that is within the party or by gathering a self-standing army is irrelevant. Obviously it is more effective to get more people to improve the chances of success even if it means each gets less loot. Even with that said, I agree to a point... I'm not a fan of the knight class. I don't feel it should even be a class, like the barbarian, but oh well it is. Changing the name is by far the simplest option, rather than trying to redesign or add something else. But, should one want to, it is fairly easily done. Perhaps knights, through display of heraldic design, can command peasants into action/inaction. Although I assume the notion is to change their native combat abilities... well, that's easy, too. Give knights a +1 bonus to AC with a shield. Give them the ability to fight with light lances on foot (not too unlike a pike, in a sense). Give them abilities to unhorse opponents or use other mounts (aside from a horse). Give them limited weapon specialization -- they select thee knightly weapons and with these alone they get to attack as an equal level fighter but cannot gain additional specialization (ie, no doubling up as fighter-knight which is technically possible.) Or, hell, just remove the fighter class and make knights have those abilities. Really there are many things that can be done. The real question is "what is broken?" Then, address it. How is the fun.

[Lurker]

The knight should be encouraged to hire followers and henchmen so that his ability to inspire and embolden has a much higher purpose and effect. Also, as it is non-magical and (as I remember) not required to be verbal, it can be used in situations where a cleric (through bless and the like) cannot emulate. Heavy armor and heavy weapons are their forte and they need chances to use them. Enforce the rules on sneak attack and backstab -- a rogue should not be using this in every combat unless he's very, very good.

Rgr that! I was flipping through UA the other night and saw how quickly the caviler got followers and henchmen. That tied to the C&C knight's inspire would be a huge boon.

Actually I don't see followers listed in the UA for Cavaliers
Here is a break down of their abilitles
+1 to hit with lance at lv 1, +1 a Sword at lv 3, +1 to hit with a horseman's weapon at lv 5. This increases at levels 7, 9, and 11
He can attack with his these weapons as if he was 5 levels higher for # of attack
He get +1 damage dismounted and +1 damage per level mounted with a lance
He can parry adding his to hit bonus to AC or 2 parries if he uses shield. No attack when parrying
Attacks as one level higher when mounted
May vault into the saddle at 3rd level.
May urge mount to greater speed at 5th level
Any steed selected by a him has +2 HP per die
Gains attributed as he level (Kind of an unfair advanatage)
Immune to fear
radites protection from fear 10' or 10yd radius inside/outside
90% immunuity and +2 save vs beguiling, charm, domination, hold, hypnosis etc
they can fight to -4 to -13 hp
Must pledge to code of chiv.

It was in the DM section of UA

[zombiehands]

Yup your right, never saw that.

[Lurker]

Yup your right, never saw that.

Me either until just the other night ... all those years of missing having my knights with a band of followers to take care of the little bad guys while they sat on their horse and looked knightly And then ride in a trample down the last few orcs or lance the big bad guy to appear the hero that saves the day