Assassins in your game

[Lord Dynel]

I was wondering about everyones' experiences with assassins. As I'm (finally) gearing up for all my gaming to be primarily C&C (got the wife and kids on it and after some ACKS with my regular group, they'll probably change over, too), I've thought about the classes and how they'll interact in my campaign world.

What, if any, have been the issues with assassins? Has there been any particular problems, be it alignment or story/roleplaying, that have arisen in your games? How have they performed, competence-wise? I ask this last question because I have vague recollections of them being not particularily effective in 1st Edition AD&D and wondered how they were in C&C. I haven't seen one played yet, but have had some thoughts of an assassin/illusionist multiclass that I think would be dang sweet! At least from my perspective! Not that I'll ever get to play, unless I can get my 11-year old to eventually run...

Anyway, I'd love to hear some stories on how assassins have performed, as a class, in your games.

[Arduin]

I imagine that the same problems that were there with them in !st Ed D&D will mostly still be there. Better for urban environments. Narrow focus. Somewhat evil (at least from the viewpoint of people who are good.

[AGNKim]

They kinda suck. Had someone play one in my campaign and, after second level, wanted to switch to being a Rogue. I would discourage it. It should be noted that my games are primarily dungeon crawls with a lot of riddles / traps / puzzles with some overland treks thrown in. I emphasize the fantastical and downplay the mundane. Deep political intrigue and careful execution of long, detailed philosophical machinations are rarely found. Assassins may fare better in these kinds of games.

[Treebore]

They have worked far better as a "Class and a half" than when ran purely as an Assassin.

[Rigon]

They have worked far better as a "Class and a half" than when ran purely as an Assassin.

I would agree with this.

R-

[Lord Dynel]

They kinda suck. Had someone play one in my campaign and, after second level, wanted to switch to being a Rogue. I would discourage it. It should be noted that my games are primarily dungeon crawls with a lot of riddles / traps / puzzles with some overland treks thrown in. I emphasize the fantastical and downplay the mundane. Deep political intrigue and careful execution of long, detailed philosophical machinations are rarely found. Assassins may fare better in these kinds of games.

This is what I figured was the problem back in the 1e days, Kim. Hearing about your play style kind of reminded me of how I used to run games - and still do a lot of the time, though I try to throw a bit of everything into the mix as well. It's interesting how your player would rather switch to a rouge, but considering the assassin does't fill the niche of "dungeon" or "troubleshooting" rouge I guess I'm not that surprised. A scout out of the dungeon (and probably in the dungeon, too) sure. But other than that, he's not filling much of a role in the party. At least not in the aforementioned scenarios.

I'm asking because I'm considering removing the assassin from the classes available. I don't particularly want to, but there may be a person or two in some of my upcoming games that may be interested in the assassin. I'd hate to dissuade them, but at he same time I also want to avoid a situation where they become disenchanted with the class. As CK, I'd do my best to make sure that doesn't happen but I don't want to do too much just for one PC to assure he/she doesn't feel worthless.

I am including the class-and-a-half option, so that may alleviate some issues as well.

[Go0gleplex]

I can't really respond to this since I do not allow assassins as a class in my games.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

They have worked far better as a "Class and a half" than when ran purely as an Assassin.

I haven't tried them with class and a half, but I have had a straight-up multiclass cleric/assassin in a game group. It's a great RP tool, because the character is the royal assassin, so the cleric is the front. Makes for a lot of cloak and dagger stuff.

[Julian Grimm]

I have only had one player want to play an assassin and he did so quite well. He used the advantages of the class's abilities and would do things like hide in trees and wait until he could act thinning out the enemies. The player used the class as a hit and run style combatant and was very good at it.

[kreider204]

Back in the 1st ed. AD&D days, I can't recall a single assassin. The same goes for most of the sub-classes - they were rarely if ever used. The problem was that they mostly came off as inferior or overly specialized versions of the main classes, and so didn't have much use outside of specialized campaigns.
My C&C playing experience is still fairly limited, so it's hard to say. I will say this for C&C, though: at least on paper, the classes look quite a bit more balanced and effective than their AD&D counterparts, and I can see them having much more general appeal. It's one of the reasons why I prefer C&C to AD&D.

[zombiehands]

We had a long running game (not as CK) with an assassin and he was way underpowered compared to the rest of the group. Their Bth kind of crippled the guy. The studying for three rounds was hard to pull off. I think he successfully assassinated 3 things in a year. A eagle (yes a normal eagle), a hobgoblin, and a young purple worm.

You mentioned ACKs and I am thinking of combining ACKs and C&C for my next game. Or maybe using the siege check with ACKs or maybe bring proficiency and race as class to C&C

[KaiserKris]

Maybe Assassins would be more useful if they had a 1/2 BtH (like clerics) to reflect their greater training in combat vis a vis the Rogue. Up their XP curve a wee bit to compensate if necessary.

[Julian Grimm]

That would be a great change up for the class. The only other way would to be redefine the abilities to make them more of a hit and run class.

[Treebore]

I give them the Fighter BtH at -2, and it still didn't help much.

[Julian Grimm]

I had an off-hand thought about making them like the 1e Ninja class. The class had to be taken with another class and XP could be divided as the player wished. Since you really wouldn't want to advertise that you are an assassin operating in secret would be the better option. As well you get the abilities of your second class right along with being a Ninja. One of the more devastating combos was the Wu-Jen Ninja. I had a player pull it off once and it was pure evil.

[Lurker]

I had an off-hand thought about making them like the 1e Ninja class. The class had to be taken with another class and XP could be divided as the player wished. Since you really wouldn't want to advertise that you are an assassin operating in secret would be the better option. As well you get the abilities of your second class right along with being a Ninja. One of the more devastating combos was the Wu-Jen Ninja. I had a player pull it off once and it was pure evil.

I've always loved that about OA & Ninja. I'd forgotten about the dividing your xp as you wished. I really like that idea! I may use it in my home brew (if I ever get to run it that is).

[BudaZoa]

Assassin and Ninja's (first edition) might be my favorite classes of all time.

In the campaigns that i have played in and dm'd for, I have never encountered problems that couldnt be handled as a player or as a DM/CK.


In C&C my fav character was an assassin who at 9th level chose to be a class and a half cleric. He rose to 11th level assassin and 3rd level cleric.


They can be strictly urban if that is the mindset for aplayer.In 1ed assassins had to be evil, in the thiefs handbook a better desfription of assasins (but a complete break down of the class) explained how an assassin could be neutral in alignment with the right background.


It depends on the pc. If you have a good roleplayer with a creative mind, the assassin chacter is a diverse one...



Be it, in my C&C campaigns that I CK in and have played in, we used 1ed rules for backstabbing and the assassination chart. None of the old school player I run wuith enjoy the "3.0 " approach to sneak attacks and the nonsense with extra dice damage as opposed to multipliers.


That way works for some but not the players i run with, the pc's in Texas that have played in my campaign enjoy backstab/ assassination to other types of special attacks for rogues and assassins.



Be that said, it completely depends on the player running the assassin. a ceative mind can bring life to any class !




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[jdizzy001]

the rogue in my group was much "better" than the assassin. however, the assassin was a sporratic player and was gone regularly. that worked out well. everytime she was gone we claimed she got a contract to fill. if you were to alter the assassin to make them more playable i recommend 1 of 2 things. 1. give them lots of poisons and encourage the player to use them. 2. alter the assassin's insta-kill move so its easier to use, but less frequent. something like once per combat select a target. the target makes a con save, if they fail, they're dead. the hide in wait for 3 rounds bit is far too long for a player to sit and do nothing.

[Lord Dynel]

Good posts, all!

I think part of the problem, at least from my point of view, is that the assassin's pièce de résistance is his Death Attack. Other than that - speaking strictly from a mechanical standpoint - he kind of falls flat. A second-hand rogue as some people have alluded to (or directly said ). Case Target is a nice ability, and can be helpful, if utilized properly. But the Death Attack is what makes the addaddin stand out, in my opinion. Only the monk gets an "attack and you die" type of maneuver, and assassin's get it from the beginning.

My issue (once again, this is opinion) is the host of creatures that an assassin will face. Assuming they will be part of a normal group of adventurers doing "normal" adventuring stuff, of course, and not a specific intrigue/city/political type game, most of the foes (and I haven't done a physical count, but I'd wager 75% or more) from the books (M&T, M&ToA, CM) have physical saves. This could make the assassin's defining ability difficult to pull off. I know I wouldn't want it too easy, of course, but it's definitely an uphill battle as-is. Compare that to the monk, who doesn't need multiple rounds to study his victim (but has to wait until 10th level and can only do it once/week) who gets lots of other interesting abilities that don't make him look like a weaker version of another class.

Now they get some nifty things from the CKG levels, but that's much later in their careers.

[BudaZoa]

Granted assassin within the circles that I play are more 1ed assassin based than C&C. Me and my friend have pretty much grabbed 1ed assassin and converted them to a d20 system as opposed to using std assassin in C&C rules. In 1ed, any time an assassin surprises, he can either backstab, assassinate or use cause normal damage.


Using back stab instead of sneak attack allows for a nice hit if the assassin is able to surprise and with 1ed assassination chart, their is no save. just a % based upon assassin level and victim. Granted these attack won't work on a lot of monsters while adventuring, but the assassin is a weapon of stealth and should be using stealth as his/her weapon. An assassin can use ANY weapon, making him able to pretty effective in combat. While base to hit is slow for an assassin, he shouldn't be going toe to toe with the beasties and undead of the realms, he should be off a distance using his other skills to assist in combat. In 1ed assassins must be 9th level to make poisons, in C&C they get that ability at level 1 which is amazing. While at lower levels kill poisons may be hard to come by, knock out and paralysis poisons aren't hard to make which are very effective.

There must be a lot more evil within my circle of player , cuz everyone shivers at the thought of an assassin foe or within the party.

I cant tell you how many assassins have come and gone within my circle of play since 1983 when I first started rpg'n.



As for adventuring, a creative mind goes a long way in rpg.

[Dracyian]

Budazoa got me thinking about assassins in dungeon crawls, with the ability to use any weapons and craft poisons such as paralysis, knock out, sleep along with long range weapons a hiding assassin can be very effective combat support, having stealth ability makes him fair at being to scout ahead at intersections doors and corners. I had an assassin who gathered dust, metal fragments, glass and clay shells to make smoke bombs which first time use effectively blinded everyone in combat allowing the assassins knowledge of where everyone was to successfully attempt a few back attacks.

So now we have created an assassin who shoots poisoned arrows into the fray at the big bad beasties putting them down for a bit, who scout ahead and have smoke bombs for quick escapes or causing confusion.

So I guess with some creativity pushed forward to the facts budazhoa reminded me of we have a fair assassin and with being a weaker class the assassin levels up faster making him able to use the skills more effectively due to faster increase in levels for siege checks