Question on Magic Items Bonuses

[Lobo316]

Are there any specific rules on "stacking" that I am missing. Example, I gave out a pair of Bracers of Armor (p. 106, M&T) last game. Quesion...do these combine with armor already worn by the character, or replace the AC value? Will they stack with his chain or is it one or the other?

[Treebore]

Are there any specific rules on "stacking" that I am missing. Example, I gave out a pair of Bracers of Armor (p. 106, M&T) last game. Quesion...do these combine with armor already worn by the character, or replace the AC value? Will they stack with his chain or is it one or the other?

There are no rules for this in C&C. I use the 3E rules off their SRD because C&C uses things like Natural Armor and Luck bonus', which other editions of D&D never used.

Here it summarized:

"Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified."

For more detail read the SRD here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

[Treebore]

Now I realize it looks complicated in the 3E SRD, so if you have the 1E DMG, look up the stacking rules in there, then write a house rule that addresses Natural Armor AC, and Luck, and maybe add in something about the AC modifiers given by the combat maneuvers, and you should be covered. Also, just to be clear/cover all bases, add in how spells do not stack with each other. Or do stack, if you want them too.

[Buttmonkey]

I don't know a RAW answer, but I would rule that the player can either wear the bracers or the chain armor, but not use both in a stacking fashion. The whole point of bracers is to avoid wearing armor (the encumbrance benefit should be huge). Plus, they look cooler. All of the cool adventurers wear bracers. Armor is for rubes.

[Treebore]

I don't know a RAW answer...

That does remind me, I do not have the CKG anywhere close to memorized, so it may actually address armor stacking. I just know it was never addressed in the PH or M&T. So my house rules document was born.

[Lobo316]

Thanks for the replies thus far. Yea, I'm having a tough time deciding whether or not to allow stacking. It does open up a whole slew of potential problems or chances for abuse. I'm familiar with the 3e rules on stack, but I'd not looked at them in some time (thanks for the link Treebore).

I'm kicking it around with my group and I'm sure we'll come to a decision of some sort. I'm not opposed to stacking, and the players have expressed a concern with keeping up with the monsters rate of attack increase (HD vs AC). We'll keep tossing it around, a couple of weeks before our next game.

[kreider204]

All of the cool adventurers wear bracers.

And bow ties. Bow ties are cool.

[Treebore]

I wouldn't allow stacking, aside from as outlined in the rules I mention above. Stacking will have them far outstripping the monsters pretty quickly.

[Traveller]

I find myself disagreeing with the idea that bonuses from bracers of armor or a ring of protection should not stack with the armor class and DEX bonus. In AD&D the ring of protection provided the bonus while the bracers provided a flat AC. Thus, while there was no benefit to wearing armor and bracers together as only the best AC applied, the ring could be worn with either and provided its bonus on top. C&C has revamped the bracers to provide a bonus to AC, meaning it should function just like the ring of protection and thus have its bonus stack.

[Treebore]

I find myself disagreeing with the idea that bonuses from bracers of armor or a ring of protection should not stack with the armor class and DEX bonus. In AD&D the ring of protection provided the bonus while the bracers provided a flat AC. Thus, while there was no benefit to wearing armor and bracers together as only the best AC applied, the ring could be worn with either and provided its bonus on top. C&C has revamped the bracers to provide a bonus to AC, meaning it should function just like the ring of protection and thus have its bonus stack.

It only stacked with non magical armor, not the magical varieties, in 1E AD&D. Bracers in C&C provide an AC the same way any armor does, Base 10 plus its bonus. So +5 Bracers would provide an AC of 15, just like Bracers of AC 5 from 1E AD&D would when converted to C&C.

I still would not allow Rings to stack with armor and shields, only other sources. As it is a +3 Full Plate and +3 Metal Shield already get you to a base AC of 25. A +3 Ring would make that a AC of 28, then DEX, then Protection From Evil, then Shield of Faith and you have a AC of as high as 35 if they have an 18 DEX. An AC a 15 HD monster can only hit an a Natural 20.


So limit stacking as much as possible.

[Traveller]

I'll have to check my copy of the DMG on that, because I don't ever recall seeing that restriction regarding the ring. In any event C&C has apparently left the choice up to the CK, since nothing in Monsters & Treasure limits stacking bonuses. I believe they should stack and you believe otherwise, so we agree to disagree.

[TensersFloatingDisk]

My edition of M&T actually says "as if he were wearing armor" so if the player actually is wearing it, that might be grounds for saying that there is no stacking in this particular case. To anyone worried about stacking bonuses giving players too high an AC to ever be hit, I'd just say that you're the CK, if you don't want players having AC that is too high, don't give them the items in the first place. 3E D&D had to have a load of restrictions because they'd made magic item manufacture so ridiculously easy people did it all the time. C&C potentially allows for more control over the "magic factory".

[Treebore]

My edition of M&T actually says "as if he were wearing armor" so if the player actually is wearing it, that might be grounds for saying that there is no stacking in this particular case. To anyone worried about stacking bonuses giving players too high an AC to ever be hit, I'd just say that you're the CK, if you don't want players having AC that is too high, don't give them the items in the first place. 3E D&D had to have a load of restrictions because they'd made magic item manufacture so ridiculously easy people did it all the time. C&C potentially allows for more control over the "magic factory".

1E AD&D had the stacking restrictions as well, and it didn't have things like luck and circumstance bonus' yet. Plus just saying "don't give it to them" is an overly simple answer. If you don't give stacking guidelines and you "only" give them a +1 ring, +1 Cloak, +1 Bracers, +1 Shield, and +1 Plate SOMEONE in some group will talk the party into letting them be the one PC with all of that so they can be the front line guy with the AC of 24, if they don't have a DEX bonus. So its best to stop the ridiculousness by giving them some clear guidance in the first place.

But as Traveller states, if your the CK, and your OK with such things, by all means, do it. C&C is a great RPG because it enables you to run the game you want to run.

[Traveller]

@Treebore: I had to head off to work, which is why my answer was so short. Now that I'm home, I did some looking in the DMG. In both OD&D and AD&D, bracers of defense do not work with armor, but do work with the ring of protection (OD&D) or "other magical items of protection" (AD&D). In the entry for the ring in the DMG, it gives a pair of exceptions. The first exception is that the ring's bonus doesn't apply towards AC if armor is worn, so in that regard you are absolutely correct. However, wearing a ring is beneficial even if you do wear armor in AD&D, because the bonus applies to saving throws.

This is a change from the original version in OD&D, because OD&D does not have that restriction. In fact, OD&D explicitly mentions that the bonus applies both to defensive capabilities and saving throws. It kind of piques my curiosity as to when Gary may have made that change in the time period between OD&D and AD&D, but that's a question unlikely to ever be answered.

Regardless, you already know my point of view from my prior post. It should be a CK call and not something codified in the rules, because as you can see, everyone has their own idea of how things should work.

P.S. Another oddity: out of the three rulesets mentioned, only AD&D explicitly prevents more than one of the same type item from being worn. I think it may be inferred in C&C, but OD&D doesn't say anything at all. Obviously, I wouldn't let one guy wear 10 +4 rings of protection along with his armor and shield, and neither should anyone else.

[kreider204]

Obviously, I wouldn't let one guy wear 10 +4 rings of protection along with his armor and shield, and neither should anyone else.

That's easy: "A character can only effectively wear two magic rings—one on each hand. A third magic ring does not function if the wearer is already wearing two magic rings" (M&T, 116).

[BudaZoa]

In 1ed AD&D, bracer were not a bonus to ac but rather gave you a base ac. Bracers of Defense could not be used with armor as it gave you a base ac. IE: bracers of defense ac 5, would give you a base ac of five (15 in C&C)

As for bonus' stacking, I haven't found a ruling in C&C yet (i also don't have CKG memorizes and I am still becoming familiar with it) but in 1ed, if a person was wearing magical armor, he would not receive a bonus to ac for magical protective devices. P 130 1ed DMG " The ring does not add to armor value if magical armor is worn, although it does add to saving throw die rolls " (is from the description of a ring of protection in DMG) could be worn with normal armor for an ac bonus though, someone wearing full plate base ac 1 (19 in C&C) could wear a ring of protection +3 for an ac of -2 (22 in C&C.)


As such, either the player is wearing a ton of protective devices or he is wearing magical armor . As you can se, it does make saving throws much easier having a ton of bonus'.

[Lurker]

.... Obviously, I wouldn't let one guy wear 10 +4 rings of protection along with his armor and shield, and neither should anyone else.

That depends, do they clash, or are they fashionable?

[Dracyian]

.... Obviously, I wouldn't let one guy wear 10 +4 rings of protection along with his armor and shield, and neither should anyone else.

That depends, do they clash, or are they fashionable?

What about toe rings

[Traveller]

@BudaZoa: The AD&D bracers of defense were brought up as a contrast to the C&C bracers of armor. My first post in the thread covered how AD&D bracers worked.

The difference between the bracers of defense in AD&D and the bracers of armor in C&C is that in terms of game mechanics the bracers of armor function identically to a ring of protection. There's nothing in the book at all about whether the bonuses granted by the bracers of armor and the ring of protection can or cannot be stacked. There's also nothing in the book saying whether the bonuses function if magic armor is worn. Therefore it is a judgement call on the CK's part as to whether the bonuses can stack or not.

@Lurker: If they look anything like the pair of rings I have on my right hand, fashionably out of date.

[Lobo316]

Thanks for all the replies gang. Some interesting conversation for sure. I'll direct my players to this forum to read up on what everyone has had to say and we'll chat about it before our next game.

[Lobo316]

Thanks again for the replies all. After some chat and getting feed back from the players, I think we are going to settle on a middle ground...

Stacking
In regards to “stacking bonuses” from magic items and/or spells, the following guidelines will be in place (though the CK may call for exceptions or further restrictions on a case by case basis)…

1. You may not benefit from the same "type" of bonus (AC, for example) from more than 3 sources (items, spells, etc).
2. You may never benefit from more than two rings of any type, one per hand.
3. You may never benefit from the same spell more than once per casting (each new casting will replace the one before it).

This should help keep things a tad "under control" while also allowing some stacking. That's just "that's the way it works". When magic items are use in conjunction like that, they begin to override one another. Only the most powerful three sources will work .