Archer Idea

[cleaverthepit]

Soo based on the disucssion in the Two Weapon Fighting Thread, I had an archer idea.

Since someone always wants to play an archer type character, I had some ideas, though have no idea how they might work yet - just brainstorming.

1. Firing two arrows in one round: The penalty is offset by dex and level. (on second thought, maybe not as this effectively gives the archer two attacks at 6th level) maybe every other level. Thats it, every other level.

2. Called shots: Called or aimed shots can not be made in one round. The archer must wait at least two rounds. The bonus is +2 for each round the character waits to fire.

Archr can be a variant of fightre, rogue, barbarian (?), ranger. Those classes lose an abiltiy or two and get the above. Or could just make a whole new class.

Anyway. Just thoughts for now.

[Barrataria]

Davis- I think it should be a rogue variant. The archers for hire in 1E were lightly armored; it makes sense that the char should have a high DEX, and not so much strength. All of which sounds more rogue-y. Or if you go for a new class, DX prime and d8 for hp.

Now, to make it interesting: how about letting slingers do the same things? I have a quasi-Greek area in my homebrew and I'd use a class along those lines.

BB

[serleran]

There should be a decided difference between bowmen and crossbowmen. For starters, the first are much more skilled. How best to represent this would be a BtH difference, probably, but it cannot be too drastic or the secondary becomes useless (in other words, to compensate, the crossbow should deal more damage, or something...) so I'd suggest something like Level -1 (as ranger) for archer (bow) and level/2 (cleric) for archer (crossbow). The majority of the abilities would be similar, but EPP required could be heavily different.

But, that's assuming one really needs such a class. I don't think its needed.

[Treebore]

The only time I created an archer class is when I created "The Bowmen of Yerth". Which were essentially 2E Paladins dedicated to the Bow, because Yerths "soul" was divided up among 13 divine bows. Being able to wield one of the bows marked you as one of the 13 elders to lead the people of "Yerth".

They were Paladins only in that they head a very specific code of conduct, and were very dedicated to Yerth and her ideals. So they got spells like Paladins in 2E, and the protection from evil, but no other "Paladin" abilities. They were N/G and recieved a +1 to Hit and Damage every 3 levels, and an additional arrow attack every 4 levels, starting with an extra (3 in 2E) attack.

At 5th level medium range was teated as short, at 10th level long range penalties were cut in half, and at 15th Archers of Yerth could hit anyone they could see with no additional Penalties, provided they were wielding one of the lesser bows or one of "the" bows of Yerth. Which by 15th level you definitely were.

Plus they also had the "divine" ability to make magical arrows, and "lesser" bows of Yerth. Mighty bows in their own right, but none of them were ever as powerful or relics, like the 13 bows of Y'erth.

They were able to "enchant" +1 versions at 3rd level, and the "+" went up by one every 3 levels thereafter, maxing out at +5 at 15th.

Additional spell effects required the aid of a full cleric or wizard. Except for arrows of slaying. Starting at 9th level they could make arrows of slaying in addition to having the +3 enchantment.

I'm sure those of you who remember 2E rules pretty well can probably "see" how I decided on certain progression, etc.... Plus I believe I drew on Dragon articles about "Archer classes".

[gideon_thorne]

Barrataria wrote:
Davis- I think it should be a rogue variant. The archers for hire in 1E were lightly armored; it makes sense that the char should have a high DEX, and not so much strength.

One needs strength to fire a bow. Even a crossbow requres strength to pull it. Both are muscle power weapons. Hence the whole 'strength' bow concept as exemplefied by 'bending the bow of Ulysses. ^_^
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Dristram]

FWIW, these are archer rules I have in my current C&C game.

Aimed Shot

You take your time aiming your ranged weapon for more deadly shot. By delaying a round, you gain +2 to attack and damage with a ranged weapon and critical hits cause triple the weapons damage. You may not move before performing an Aimed Shot and being attacked will negate an Aimed Shot. You may move after performing the Aimed Shot. An Aimed Shot is only effective when the opponent is within the first range increment of the weapon used.

Multiple Shot

You fire twice with your ranged weapon. By spending the whole round concentrating on firing your ranged weapon, you gain an additional attack, but at a -2 for each attack. Crossbows and slings are excluded from this ability. You may not move and perform a Multiple Shot in the same round.

There is a bowman class called the Marksman in Beyond Belief's Netbook of C&C Classes.

BTW, in my next C&C game, I'm working on implimenting missile weapon rates of fire from 1eAD&D. I don't really see anything wrong with letting characters fire more than once with their bow per round without penalty. It worked fine in AD&D. I'm also planning on implimenting the weapon specialization rule from AD&D UA. I figure what ever worked in 1eAD&D should work fine in C&C.

[Dristram]

Barrataria wrote:
Davis- I think it should be a rogue variant. The archers for hire in 1E were lightly armored;

Archers in history were also lightly armored, but not rogue-like at all. They were lightly armored because on the battlefields, they were behind their own lines and pretty safe from melee combat. If they were ever overrun, they were pretty much screwed.

Strength is an important aspect of firing a bow though. I can still remember the day when I was a kid and could finally fully pull back my 55 lb. recurve. 8)

[maasenstodt]

cleaverthepit wrote:
1. Firing two arrows in one round: The penalty is offset by dex and level. (on second thought, maybe not as this effectively gives the archer two attacks at 6th level) maybe every other level. Thats it, every other level.

I think that if a 6th level fighter (or archer) wants to fire two shots in a round, allowing their full level BtH is very fair. Looking at the type of opposition that a 6th level PC is likely to face, on one hand you've got lots of goblinoid minions, in which case this ability with full BtH applied isn't a lot better (and is possibly worse) than the Combat Dominance ability gained at 4th level. On the other hand, you have one or two bigger, tougher foes, likely with higher ACs, in which case even with full BtH applied, the odds of even one of your arrows striking home is much less than if you fire a single shot.

Either way, if you take away half the character's full BtH, the entire ability loses much of its appeal - it becomes, at best, a small advantage against some mooks and a downright foolish tactic against tougher foes. And that is to say nothing of the fact that once you introduce divided BtHs into the equation, the game becomes more complicated.

Considering all of that, having looked at the probabilities myself, and knowing my own playtesting experience, I'm convinced that keeping the BtH as is is the way to go. It's both well balanced and a seemless fit into the current rules.

cleaverthepit wrote:
2. Called shots: Called or aimed shots can not be made in one round. The archer must wait at least two rounds. The bonus is +2 for each round the character waits to fire.

This isn't a bad idea - myself, I'm rather neutral on it - but if it were to be implemented, I say why not let everyone have access to the ability? That is to say, regardless of your class and the weapon you're using, if you spend one round just measuring your opponent for weaknesses and waiting for an opening, you get a +2 to hit in the next round.

[gideon_thorne]

maasenstodt wrote:
This isn't a bad idea - myself, I'm rather neutral on it - but if it were to be implemented, I say why not let everyone have access to the ability? That is to say, regardless of your class and the weapon you're using, if you spend one round just measuring your opponent for weaknesses and waiting for an opening, you get a +2 to hit in the next round.

I do called shots. Anyone can try it on their immedate action, but there are as severe AC penalities to the action as their are bennies.

One can, for example, try a called shot to the head at a -8 to the roll. But, one is also going to be able to multiply the damage by a factor of 8 as well. Great for those insta-kill scenario's people like. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[maasenstodt]

gideon_thorne wrote:
I do called shots. Anyone can try it on their immedate action, but there are as severe AC penalities to the action as their are bennies.

One can, for example, try a called shot to the head at a -8 to the roll. But, one is also going to be able to multiply the damage by a factor of 8 as well. Great for those insta-kill scenario's people like. ^_~`

Wow... I hope for your PCs' sakes that you don't have your monsters take frequent called shots!

[gideon_thorne]

maasenstodt wrote:
Wow... I hope for your PCs' sakes that you don't have your monsters take frequent called shots!

*smiles* Well it works like this. If the players want to use the system, the monsters get to use the system. If the players dont use it, the critters don't. Fair? ^_^

Thats my 'balance' method to the system.

However, a begining level character would be a fool to try it. The penalities make it prohibitive. I do make this an effect of a 'critical' however. Depending, of course, on how close to a called shot a given 'critical' is?

For example. If someone rolled a natural twenty, and their roll was high enough over the target AC number to hit the 'head', I'd let em take the damage and the bennies.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Barrataria]

gideon_thorne wrote:
One needs strength to fire a bow. Even a crossbow requres strength to pull it. Both are muscle power weapons. Hence the whole 'strength' bow concept as exemplefied by 'bending the bow of Ulysses. ^_^

Interestingly, the game mechanic chosen for this game relating to bows is Dexterity. I don't disagree with the factual point, but this game doesn't connect strength and propelled missile weapons.

BB

[Dristram]

Barrataria wrote:
Interestingly, the game mechanic chosen for this game relating to bows is Dexterity. I don't disagree with the factual point, but this game doesn't connect strength and propelled missile weapons.

BB

I'll step in here. Where a bow is concerned, the power, and thus damage, comes from the pull of the bow, not the bowman's strength, though the bowman needs enough strength to pull a bow. Average strength should suffice. Dexterity comes in to play more for actual combat because it's required for aiming. A hand-eye coordination sort of thing.

That said, the strength bow weapons of 3e were a good idea. Though I'd say they probably have an iffy place in a "rules lite" system. The way the Trolls have done it is very good for a rules lite system. The composite bows are like strength bows and thus a higher dice of damage.

[gideon_thorne]

Barrataria wrote:
Interestingly, the game mechanic chosen for this game relating to bows is Dexterity. I don't disagree with the factual point, but this game doesn't connect strength and propelled missile weapons.

BB

Actually it does, when it applies the STR bonus as damage. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Dristram]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually it does, when it applies the STR bonus as damage. ^_^

Where does it do that??

[gideon_thorne]

Dristram wrote:
Where does it do that??

Under the STR description where it says one adds the STR modifier to damage. ^_^

Page 117 also has a bit about 'thrown' weapons vs propelled weapons. Wherein one adds the str mod to the damage of a thrown weapon vs not doing so for a propelled weapon.

But honestly, methinks that is nonsense. Bows and crossbows are stored muscle power which is used to throw a missile. Its still the same strength energy either way.

Page 117's exclusion is a violation of both physics and thermodynamics.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Dristram]

The page 117 statement is what I've been using. Using the strength bonus as a house rule could easily be done and makes a certain amount of sense.

[Maliki]

Here is the Archer class I use in my current campaign.
Archers

Lightly armed and armored, archers are masters of the bow, either the longbow or short bow. What they lack in close combat, they more than make up for with their ability to deal damage at a distance. Elves, half-elves, and humans are the most common archers, although halfling archers are not unheard of.
Prime Dexterity
Alignment Any
HD d8
Weapons Longbows, Short Bows, Composite Longbows Composite Short Bows, and any one handed melee weapon.
Armor Padded, Leather, Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Ring Mail & Bucklers
Shields Bucklers only .
Class Abilities Bow Specialization, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Arrows
Class Abilities
Bow Specialization (1st ) At first level the archer is considered specialized with any type of bow (excluding crossbows), he gains a +1 hit and damage (this rises to +2 at 7th level) whenever he uses any bow. The archer suffers a -1 penalty to hit and damage in all melee combats.
Deadly Aim (3rd) The archer may add his dexterity bonus to all damage rolls, with a bow.
Precise Shot (4th) The archer may ignore 4 points worth of penalties (cover, concealment, moving, firing into melee, etc) when using his bow.
Rapid shot (8th) The archer may fire two arrows per round.
Flurry of Arrows (12th) Archer may fire three arrow per round.

Level BTH XP

1 +1 0

2 +2 1750

3 +3 3500

4 +4 7000

5 +5 14,000

6 +6 25,000

7 +7 50,000

8 +8 90,000

9 +9 150,000

10 +10 200,000

11 +11 350,000

12 +12 500,000

*150,000 per level after 12th
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