The Evil Dice?

[TensersFloatingDisk]

With Feather Edged swords and Vorpal weapons I WANT them to cut off their own body parts. It keeps them from using the darn things all the time. Yes, they get to add level on the DEX check. As for the poisons, you've just been very lucky. I've seen plenty of professional cooks with plenty of cuts or scars from cuts on their hands. Heck, in the 22 years we've been married, my wife gave herself a nasty cut on her thumb, twice. IE going to the hospital and getting stitches type of nasty.

So it does happen, hence my rules.

I cut or burn myself in the kitchen from time to time, but that doesn't mean I ingest the food or get any of it into the cut, which is what you'd have to do to poison yourself. For a real world comparator, how many fugu chefs actually poison themselves rather than their customers? I appreciate that game balance is the motivation, it's just that it results in a very weird world. Lately I've tended to get annoyed with game systems of any sort that lead to a lot of wacky randomness where the the Str 6 weakling beats the Str 16 big bruiser at arm wrestling because the dice say so and say so with a ridiculously high frequency.

Rather than clog up the House Rules thread further with this discussion, I moved my reply here and will comment further. To take the example above, if you play it by straight D20 System rules, here's what you would do: the weakling gets a -2 Str mod, the big bruiser gets a +3 for a net difference of +5. That's considered a large modifier, but then you realise it's modifiying d20s. Only if the difference between the rolls is 5 or less does it matter that the big bruiser is much stronger: the other three quarters of the time, it's irrelevant, only the dice decide. This means the weakling actually wins roughly one in three arm wrestling matches, when you'd really be looking for it be about one in fifty or a hundred, given the extreme difference in strength.

For this reason, these days I tend to look to rolling a pool of a few dice to get a "bell curve" result where weirdness is less likely or rolling, say, a d6 or d10 rather than a d20 so that there is less extreme variation. Do other people feel the same, or do you feel that the wackiness of the dice rolls just adds to the fun of playing?

[Rigon]

With Feather Edged swords and Vorpal weapons I WANT them to cut off their own body parts. It keeps them from using the darn things all the time. Yes, they get to add level on the DEX check. As for the poisons, you've just been very lucky. I've seen plenty of professional cooks with plenty of cuts or scars from cuts on their hands. Heck, in the 22 years we've been married, my wife gave herself a nasty cut on her thumb, twice. IE going to the hospital and getting stitches type of nasty.

So it does happen, hence my rules.

I cut or burn myself in the kitchen from time to time, but that doesn't mean I ingest the food or get any of it into the cut, which is what you'd have to do to poison yourself. For a real world comparator, how many fugu chefs actually poison themselves rather than their customers? I appreciate that game balance is the motivation, it's just that it results in a very weird world. Lately I've tended to get annoyed with game systems of any sort that lead to a lot of wacky randomness where the the Str 6 weakling beats the Str 16 big bruiser at arm wrestling because the dice say so and say so with a ridiculously high frequency.

Rather than clog up the House Rules thread further with this discussion, I moved my reply here and will comment further. To take the example above, if you play it by straight D20 System rules, here's what you would do: the weakling gets a -2 Str mod, the big bruiser gets a +3 for a net difference of +5. That's considered a large modifier, but then you realise it's modifiying d20s. Only if the difference between the rolls is 5 or less does it matter that the big bruiser is much stronger: the other three quarters of the time, it's irrelevant, only the dice decide. This means the weakling actually wins roughly one in three arm wrestling matches, when you'd really be looking for it be about one in fifty or a hundred, given the extreme difference in strength.

For this reason, these days I tend to look to rolling a pool of a few dice to get a "bell curve" result where weirdness is less likely or rolling, say, a d6 or d10 rather than a d20 so that there is less extreme variation. Do other people feel the same, or do you feel that the wackiness of the dice rolls just adds to the fun of playing?

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

[Treebore]

I live with and largely embrace the whackiness. If we wanted realism we would have to use D1,000, D10,000, D100,000, D1,000,000 and so on to accurately reflect the real chances of anything.

[Arduin]

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

Correct. If something is a given, I don't roll dice. Example: When my sone was 10 yrs old, there was, in reality, no possibility of me losing an arm wrestling bout with him. In those type of situations, I don't roll dice in a game. Neither do I play in games where, 5% of the time, a PC trips and falls on his/her face when walking across the street.

[mbeacom]

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

Correct. If something is a given, I don't roll dice. Example: When my sone was 10 yrs old, there was, in reality, no possibility of me losing an arm wrestling bout with him. In those type of situations, I don't roll dice in a game. Neither do I play in games where, 5% of the time, a PC trips and falls on his/her face when walking across the street.

I very much agree. This is one of the reasons I love C&C. They make it quite clear. I think the wording is something like "Unless there is a significant chance of failure, leave the dice on the table. The narrative, more than the dice should decide how the game plays out".

[TensersFloatingDisk]

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

Didn't say that I would roll the dice, just pointing out that the dice determine things with a great deal of dicey diceness, more than you would think. By convention, +5 is thought of as a large bonus. Really, it isn't.

[koralas]

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

Didn't say that I would roll the dice, just pointing out that the dice determine things with a great deal of dicey diceness, more than you would think. By convention, +5 is thought of as a large bonus. Really, it isn't.

+5 = +25% of the capability of a d20, that is very significant.

+5 > 50% of the max damage of 61 of the 74 melee weapons in the PHB (it is less than 50% of only 4 of those weapons), that is incredibly significant.

[Sir Ironside]

It wasn't unusual that my groups sometimes went hours without rolling dice. Even from my early beginnings I was rolling for everything. Through the years I grew into a comfort zone where diced are rolled for drama and chance. I found rolling too much made it less role-playing and more board gaming. The flow of the story always takes precedence.

If you're trying to sneak by a guard(s) at a busy city gate I don't see where a roll creates any kind of tense drama or even an importance to the story. Why roll for a guard who really doesn't give a shit? Now, trying to sneak past someone guarding the royal chamber has much more promise.

[TensersFloatingDisk]

My question is why even roll dice if you don't like the randomness?

R-

Didn't say that I would roll the dice, just pointing out that the dice determine things with a great deal of dicey diceness, more than you would think. By convention, +5 is thought of as a large bonus. Really, it isn't.

+5 = +25% of the capability of a d20, that is very significant.

It's not very significant: three times out of four it has no effect whatsoever. That's my point: a d20 gives a very large range, each number having the same probability. It reminds me of the 3E ELH "Epic Initiative". In my book, that should mean you always win the initiative; that would be "epic" - you don't even roll unless your opponent has it as well. What did it actually give you? +8 on initiative rolls, which were on d20, which meant that 58% of the time your "epic" ability had no effect on the initiative roll. Anyway, it looks as if some players like the wacky randomness as part of the game and others use them only when necessary.

[Arduin]

It's not very significant: three times out of four it has no effect whatsoever.

In the long term, vs. not having a +5, it IS significant. In as far as results over time.

Take a scenario. We both have AC 11. I have a +5 to hit. You have a +0. (We'll use a d4 for simplicity)
You hit on a 3 or 4. I hit on a 2,3 or 4. In 4 rounds I hit you 3 times. You hit me 2 times. Extend that out over more rounds. Over time I'm probably alive. You are most likely dead.

[TensersFloatingDisk]

It's significant over the career of an adventurer; even a 5% advantage would be, but my orginal quibble was with the weirdness of a d20 for something like, as I cited, an arm wrestling match where it's only one two rolls that matter. Lots and lots of rolls are going to give the same sort of curve as lots and lots of dice for fewer rolls.

[Arduin]

It's significant over the career of an adventurer; even a 5% advantage would be, but my orginal quibble was with the weirdness of a d20 for something like, as I cited, an arm wrestling match where it's only one two rolls that matter. Lots and lots of rolls are going to give the same sort of curve as lots and lots of dice for fewer rolls.

True. If someone has a str that is even 2 higher than the other, no roll is even needed. You'd only roll if the scores were within one of each other. Of course considering both do or don't have it as prime...

[Sir Ironside]

It's significant over the career of an adventurer; even a 5% advantage would be, but my orginal quibble was with the weirdness of a d20 for something like, as I cited, an arm wrestling match where it's only one two rolls that matter. Lots and lots of rolls are going to give the same sort of curve as lots and lots of dice for fewer rolls.

True. If someone has a str that is even 2 higher than the other, no roll is even needed. You'd only roll if the scores were within one of each other. Of course considering both do or don't have it as prime...

These are the d20 rules, other systems iron these types of things out better, so there is always a choice to play a system better suited to your style.

Personally I don't mind cracking my CK?DM/GM knuckles and introduce other penalties/bonuses that the scene may fit.

Like the arm wrestling example. If it is just a straight-up arm wrestle then yeah just roll vs. roll. But, if something is introduced that could apply pressure to the situation (Surrounded by a hostile audience, the outcome has some greater risk/reward etc.) I might add or subtract some modifiers for that roll. Otherwise I wouldn't hesitate to rule "no contest" and declare a winner based on the stats alone.

[Arduin]

It's significant over the career of an adventurer; even a 5% advantage would be, but my orginal quibble was with the weirdness of a d20 for something like, as I cited, an arm wrestling match where it's only one two rolls that matter. Lots and lots of rolls are going to give the same sort of curve as lots and lots of dice for fewer rolls.

True. If someone has a str that is even 2 higher than the other, no roll is even needed. You'd only roll if the scores were within one of each other. Of course considering both do or don't have it as prime...

These are the d20 rules, other systems iron these types of things out better, so there is always a choice to play a system better suited to your style.

Those are actually my rules based on C&C. Minimal roles, use GM judgement & primes/secondary attributes.

[koralas]

It's not very significant: three times out of four it has no effect whatsoever. That's my point: a d20 gives a very large range, each number having the same probability. It reminds me of the 3E ELH "Epic Initiative". In my book, that should mean you always win the initiative; that would be "epic" - you don't even roll unless your opponent has it as well. What did it actually give you? +8 on initiative rolls, which were on d20, which meant that 58% of the time your "epic" ability had no effect on the initiative roll. Anyway, it looks as if some players like the wacky randomness as part of the game and others use them only when necessary.

Your logic is incorrect. The +5 is added to every roll, improving your chance by 25%. Basically you change your odds on every single roll, take for instance a Siege Engine check. You succeed on a d20 roll 12, meaning a 40% chance no adjustments, get your +5 you now have a 65% chance of succeeding. Take combat, AC 10, with no adjustments you have a 50% chance of hitting, get the +5 and you are hitting with a 75% chance. That is a huge improvement no matter how you look at it.

It is still a huge difference on directly opposed check; however, your example above shows the obvious issues with a directly opposed check, the randomness of the die will trump the situation. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Have you watched an arm wrestling competition, often much smaller men win, why? Simple they have better reaction times, understand how to apply leverage, and even a difference in the way you grip will affect the outcome. A better way of running an arm wrestling competition in a SIEGE Engine world be (note not play tested, but initial raw thoughts) -

• Roll a d4 for initiative (including Dex modifier), the difference is added to the first SIEGE check for the person with the higher roll.
• Have the stronger person (or the one that won initiative if they have the same Str) make a CL0 SIEGE check, if they succeed, then the amount by which it was passed is the CL for the weaker opponent
• The weaker opponent then makes their SIEGE check, and the difference between success or failure are added to the "swing"
• The swing ranges from 5 (the stronger) to -5 (the weaker) starting at 0, the stronger wins once the swing is greater than 5, the weaker if it goes below -5

With this a true weakling (non STR prime) will almost always loose to a strongman (STR prime), unless there is a huge difference in their STR scores -3/+3 which would negate the Prime bonus. Similarly, I have beaten friends that are quite a bit stronger in arm wrestling, simply because of the things I noted above, getting your wrist turned (or getting into whatever technique you prefer), and jumping on top at the start of the heat give you a huge advantage. Most heats are over in two seconds, rarely do you see a heat where you have to match strength to strength very long.

[TensersFloatingDisk]

It's not very significant: three times out of four it has no effect whatsoever. That's my point: a d20 gives a very large range, each number having the same probability. It reminds me of the 3E ELH "Epic Initiative". In my book, that should mean you always win the initiative; that would be "epic" - you don't even roll unless your opponent has it as well. What did it actually give you? +8 on initiative rolls, which were on d20, which meant that 58% of the time your "epic" ability had no effect on the initiative roll. Anyway, it looks as if some players like the wacky randomness as part of the game and others use them only when necessary.

Your logic is incorrect. The +5 is added to every roll, improving your chance by 25%.

There is only one roll, as I've said.

[koralas]

It's not very significant: three times out of four it has no effect whatsoever. That's my point: a d20 gives a very large range, each number having the same probability. It reminds me of the 3E ELH "Epic Initiative". In my book, that should mean you always win the initiative; that would be "epic" - you don't even roll unless your opponent has it as well. What did it actually give you? +8 on initiative rolls, which were on d20, which meant that 58% of the time your "epic" ability had no effect on the initiative roll. Anyway, it looks as if some players like the wacky randomness as part of the game and others use them only when necessary.

Your logic is incorrect. The +5 is added to every roll, improving your chance by 25%.

There is only one roll, as I've said.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My thought is adding 25% to your roll is very significant, while you postulate that it is not significant at all. Fair enough...

Of course this also points out the downside of direct opposed checks rather than using something like the SIEGE Engine to make competing checks. But that is another discussion entirely.